Why do I need a pre-amp?

In short if you don't appreciate the sonic benefits and connection flexibility of the NAC you probably don't need it. 

Hi Simon,

That is the point that I probably didn't express very well;

i.e. just what are the "sonic benefits", if any?

My point is that doesn't logic say that the fewer stages in the source -> speaker chain the better ...

... but then when has logic had anything to do with SQ and our psychoacoustic perceptions

I get the connectivity flexibility but probably don't need it, so decision sticks on the SQ question.

Allan

Allan - ther isn't a phono stage with volume control as far as I know.

I hope you do realise that the sound / tone etc is created by a pre-amp. Not by a power-amp...

Hi Adam,

... but then the phono output could be connected to the line-level inputs of the DAC/pre-amp (if it had any).

I thought the sound and tone come from the source signal and all that a pre-amp can do is colour it!

... or of course my argument could be taken the other way and ask why pre-amps are put in a DAC; but then I know why, to provide a consumer experience that doesn't necessarily apply to our hifi rigs in that we hav sources other than digital.

So why can't we have simpler(and cheaper!) DAC only products at the price points of the combined DAC/pre-amp products; I know there are such things but the reviews all seemm to rave about the combined ones like the Naim DAC V1 and Hugo TT.

... I have a sore head now

Allan

With Chord Hugo, HugoTT and Dave you don't need a preamp unless:a) you have non-digital sources, or more digital sources than the units have inputs and you dont want to physically swap, or b) you want the Naim sound tweaking that is designed to emphasise 'PRaT' rather than having a flat response. TT and Dave have remote controls that include volume, whereas Hugo's is a physical and slightly unusual thumbwheel only .

i use my Hugo very happily without a preamp, but retain an old preamp for (non-hifi) analog sources, manually swapping cables to change over. i am considering upgrading to TT or Dave, which have balanced outputs as well as unbalanced, and I could then use my power amp's balanced/unbalanced input switch to change between them, and in the longer term I will consider an ADC to feed analog onto the DAC, especially if I go for Dave.

Some experienced or knowledgeable folks will be able to offer some insight into your situation soon. The way I see it, the main differences between a DAC-preamp and a dedicated preamp (that will influence the choice of the user) are:- 1) connectivity (the number of sources that will be connected to the system), 2) sound quality and 3) cost. You can sort out the connectivity part. As for sound quality between the Hugo and 282(or 252), I presume this will be subjective and dependent on the listener's preference. Yes, all preamps have a certain sound signature, in other words a different "colouration" with each preamp.

As a side note, there are many cheaper DACs that have a preamp and volume control functions. Nevertheless, according to some reports, running the DAC direct to the power amp usually yield less than stellar results. Not too sure about the Chord units vs. Naim preamps though.

You have to think of the Naim amplifier as separated into pre-amp and power amp only so as to give the sensitive pre-amp section the opportunity to live in its own enclosure away from power supplies and main amplification; the pre and power amps are two sides of the one amplifier.  Essentially what the pre-amp does is prepare the signal so that it is optimised for the power amp.  Naim's design relies to some extent on bandwidth limiting to achieve best performance where ultra high frequencies are steeply filtered beyond 40-50kHz.  This is achieved through both pre-amp and to a lesser extent the power amp. So it makes sense to provide the optimum signal for the power amp to make the best with.  For this a Naim pre-amp is ideal, because they were designed to be matched together.  With anything else fronting a Naim power amp, all bets are off.

Allan, essentially the Preamp and the Poweramp are normally considered a pair to work together. The Preamp effectively acts a very high quality buffer stage to allow differing sources of different levels and source impedances to be optimally connected to the power amp and be played at different volumes in a consistent way.

Hi InnocentBystander,

Your profile is an interesting route as to how you got to where  you are.

My experience is that the digital domain has just not got the finesse of vinyl, perhaps best summed up in that there is a limit to the volume of digital that I can stand before I turn it down; whereas turning up the volume on my LP12 source just seems to give me more music.

I therefore moved seriously back to vinyl a few years ago after I had ripped all my CDs and put them in the loft.

My original Deep Purple In Rock LP still does it for me even after 45 years, although it seems modern versions have removed that jump on Child In Time and it just doesn't sound right

I Wonder what the quality of digital would be if the money that I spent on the LP12 and all its bits and bobs was spent on digital instead?

... I too have invested in the  age-related filtering component, not a very good one either in that it seems to have a really bad spike on certain high piano notes at volume

Allan

Allan

Think of it this way...

Guitar is your source. Any guitar / source has a unique sound.

You then plug it into an amplifier. But actually what you do is your signal goes first into a pre-amp section, wich either colours it or overdrives it. Yes that famous fuzz / overdrive / distortion / sustain you hear on all rock albums actually comes from a pre-amp's overdrivet and over-saturated tubes.

Once you are done shaping your sound it then gets passed onto a power amp, so you can actually hear it via a speaker.

The same thing happens in the hi-fi world:

Source > pre-amp > power amp > speakers.

DAC V-1 is essentially two components in one: a digital-to-analogue converter and a pre-amp.

Adam

I can't speak for the Chord DACs, but certainly the V1 is an excellent digital preamp. But then it was designed by Naim for this purpose, to work with Naim, or other, power amps.

I suppose you could route your analogue record deck output through an A to D convertor and thence to the digital preamp, but you risk degrading the fragile signal. If you're determined, you could always give it a try.

Allan Milne posted:

Hi Simon,

 

That is the point that I probably didn't express very well;

i.e. just what are the "sonic benefits", if any?

 

My point is that doesn't logic say that the fewer stages in the source -> speaker chain the better ...

... but then when has logic had anything to do with SQ and our psychoacoustic perceptions

 

I get the connectivity flexibility but probably don't need it, so decision sticks on the SQ question.

Allan

My kind of post!

Simon, you don't, Sonic benefits!

Innocent, complies, you don't

 Ryder, connectivity

 Allan, you read to much:

"Your preamplifier is arguably the second most important device in your audio system. Only the source component,  your CD player, LP playback system or other primary source.....

At the core of our beliefs is the drive to attain simplicity. Each and every component in a preamplifier contributes in one way or another to the non-linearity of the output. No matter how good any given component part is, it is not perfect - by definition. Each new part adds distortions that are often unrelated to the music being amplified."

I'm sure Simon will get back, and confirm, there are no sonic benefits, but rather, as Ryder has suggested, a hub:

Digital Streaming, Nds- mojo

Digital CD, CD555- Oppo 95

Analog TT, LP 12- SL Panasonic

But you know what, sure looks good, all those Black Boxes Fraimed up!

Allante93!

Yes, I get what the pre-amp does and Richard's explanation is enlightening too

... perhaps this is indicating the rationale for the N272.

.... but then why have the pre-amp on a DAC other than for convenience for portability?

Allante93 - don't really understand your post Im afraid ??

Quite  honestly i consider my Naim NAC and NAP a pair as I said above - and there is a significant SQ performance benefit in treating them as a pair (IME)  - and I think Richard wrote the same at the same time as my earlier post. I have toyed once with connecting a Hugo directly to a NAP 250.2 - and  the performance difference between that and using the active buffer of the 252 is immense. 

Some great replies, thanks all.

Allante93 - yep I get it and that is my point with, for example, the DAC V1 we have

source (DAC) -> pre (V1) -> pre (282) -> power

i.e. more colouring components in the chain.

Simon - thanks, just the kind of experience I was seeking.

So really all we need is a bloody good DAC and let that go directly into the one and only pre-amp in the system;

we're all paying extra for those pre-amps that come packaged with the DAC, never mind the extra component in the SQ pipeline.

Allan

Simon-in-Suffolk posted:

Allante93 - don't really understand your post Im afraid ??

 

No, Simon, you answered correctly, you don't need the pre amp, I just knew where the OP was going, that's all.

I love sitting on the sidelines!

Allante93!

Allan Milne posted:

 

I read a post on another thread in which a Hugo TT was connected directly to a 250DR and this got me thinking about my next upgrade which was planned to be from 202 to 282 ...

I have 3 sources currently connected to the pre-mp:

* UnitiServ -> DAC V1.

* LP12 -> Linto.

* Sky+ box audio.

 

I know the DAC V1 is also a pre-amp;

the Sky+ box has a digital output that could be connected to the DAC V1;

... so that leaves the LP12/Linto ... ?

 

So I could connect the DAC V1 directly into the 250DR (couldn't I?) and therefore only need the pre-amp for the turntable.

Is there a phono stage that could output line-level to the 250DR and do away with the pre-amp completely? 

 

If the DAC V1 cannot be connected to the 250DR directly then the argument above still holds if I get a replacement like the Hugo TT.

 

So why have the dedicated pre-amps any more; surely they are purely additive in terms of colouring the sound and the fewer stages between source and speaker the better?

 

... or am I missing something ...

confused Allan

 

When you get your 250DR Allan ask Robbie for a loaner of his TT, plug and play into the amp and see what you think. That will give you a benchmark.

G

Allan Milne posted:

Hi My experience is that the digital domain has just not got the finesse of vinyl, perhaps best summed up in that there is a limit to the volume of digital that I can stand before I turn it down; whereas turning up the volume on my LP12 source just seems to give me more music.

I therefore moved seriously back to vinyl a few years ago after I had ripped all my CDs and put them in the loft.

My original Deep Purple In Rock LP still does it for me even after 45 years, although it seems modern versions have removed that jump on Child In Time and it just doesn't sound right

 

I Wonder what the quality of digital would be if the money that I spent on the LP12 and all its bits and bobs was spent on digital instead?

 

... I too have invested in the  age-related filtering component, not a very good one either in that it seems to have a really bad spike on certain high piano notes at volume

Allan

 

 

I think the Hugo brought a more natural (vinyl-like) quality to digital replay. And without the unavoidable inherent limitations of vinyl (compression, surface noise, wear etc). I wonder if you might find tha, too?

Adam Zielinski posted:

Allan - ther isn't a phono stage with volume control as far as I know.

Where is (was) a Quad QC Twentyfour phono stage with volume iirc.

I'm sure people will be horrified by my suggestion... but you could try a high quality ADC (analogue to digital converter) to inout your turntable into the DAC V1 (I found it a shame that Naim didn't give the DAC V1 an analogue input). 

As for the whole "Do I need a pre-amp?" question... well the DAC V1 *is* a preamp as well as being a DAC.  

Adam Zielinski posted:

Allan

Think of it this way...

Guitar is your source. Any guitar / source has a unique sound.

You then plug it into an amplifier. But actually what you do is your signal goes first into a pre-amp section, wich either colours it or overdrives it. Yes that famous fuzz / overdrive / distortion / sustain you hear on all rock albums actually comes from a pre-amp's overdrivet and over-saturated tubes.

Once you are done shaping your sound it then gets passed onto a power amp, so you can actually hear it via a speaker.

The same thing happens in the hi-fi world:

Source > pre-amp > power amp > speakers.

Adam

Except that in the guitar playing world the overload and distortion etc is sought after because it adds pleasing 'colour' to the sound (alternatively using effects devices if the amp is too 'clean'), whereas in the hifi world people usually don't want to add more distortion to the guitars, or other colouration, the goal generally being as clean a sound as possible so you hear what was recorded/mixed exactly as it is, theoretically without the hifi system modifying it although perfection isn't there so some modification is inevitable (especially at the speaker/room end).

Allan Milne posted:

 

Some great replies, thanks all.

 

Allante93 - yep I get it and that is my point with, for example, the DAC V1 we have

source (DAC) -> pre (V1) -> pre (282) -> power

i.e. more colouring components in the chain.

 

Simon - thanks, just the kind of experience I was seeking.

 

So really all we need is a bloody good DAC and let that go directly into the one and only pre-amp in the system;

we're all paying extra for those pre-amps that come packaged with the DAC, never mind the extra component in the SQ pipeline.

 

Allan

 

If you use the V1 with the 282,  there is no issue about 'colouring' the sound with 2 pre amps in the amp chain.

A quick look at the product description pages (or a longer look at the V1 manual) on the Naim site should show you, and as mentioned above, that the V1 is intend to be used with Naim pre amps or power amps.

Putting it simply, if you use a 282 with the V1, the pre in the V1 is bypassed.

IME the  282 is an increably more capable pre than that in the V1, which will also benefit your LP12.

If you are after a dedicated DAC , Naim and others make them.

Jude

Jude2012 posted:

Allan Milne posted:

 

Some great replies, thanks all.

 

Allante93 - yep I get it and that is my point with, for example, the DAC V1 we have

source (DAC)Hugo -> pre (V1) -> pre (282) ->power(250DR)

i.e. more colouring components in the chain.

 

Simon - thanks, just the kind of experience I was seeking.

 

So really all we need is a bloody good DAC and let that go directly into the one and only pre-amp in the system;

we're all paying extra for those pre-amps that come packaged with the DAC, never mind the extra component in the SQ pipeline.

 

Allan

 

If you use the V1 with the 282,  there is no issue about 'colouring' the sound with 2 pre amps in the amp chain.

A quick look at the product description pages (or a longer look at the V1 manual) on the Naim site should show you, and as mentioned above, that the V1 is intend to be used with Naim pre amps or power amps.

Putting it simply, if you use a 282 with the V1, the pre in the V1 is bypassed.

IME the  282 is an increably more capable pre than that in the V1, which will also benefit your LP12.

If you are after a dedicated DAC , Naim and others make them.

Jude

Would the Hugo, be an dedicated DAC ?

An interesting read, but I don't fully understand:

Preamps - Active, Passive, or none?

By Steven Stone | October 26, 2011 6:26 PM

“Two "active" preamps that came very close to the ideal of "a straight wire with gain" were the Carver Lightstar and the Adcom GFP-750. Both could be easily switched from active to passive. And with both units the best sonic results came from using them in passive mode. The best feature of these preamps was that when you needed an active preamp, you could engage their active circuitry, but otherwise this part of the preamp could be bypassed…….

Of course if your DAC has its own internal preamp, such as in the Wyred4Sound Dac-2 or Weiss DAC202 you don't need to have a separate analog preamp in your system - you can directly connect either of these DACs to your power amps, which is how I use them. Especially if your system uses exclusively digital sources, using a DAC with variable outputs not only saves you the cost of a separate preamp, but can also deliver superior sonics. Sonically, nothing is better than nothing at all... ‘’

As most of you know, I’m not that tech savvy, as some of the Computer Engineers, etc.. that contribute to the Forum. 

Hence I’m still confused, Does the Hugo, fall into the Latter category, With it’s own internal pre-amp?

If this is the case, wouldn't it be better to utilize the internal pre-amp within the Hugo, as opposed to by-passing it, and using an 282, 252, or 552 active pre amp ?

Let's not mention an S1! 

Just trying to Understand!

Perhaps I'm missing something ! 

Thanks In advance! 

Allante93! 

yes, the hugo has its own internal preamp\volume\voltage control. it cannot be bypassed. connecting it to a second preamp will degrade transparancy, even if it was the best preamp ever made.

Graeme - thanks for the suggestion, will do this.

InnocentBystander -I am actually now reconsidering my position of Vinyl vs digital, will be the subject of a forthcoming post.

Eloise
- Can't see the point in putting in an ADC because then we would have
phono stage -> ADC -> digital pre -> DAC -> ...
-just more colouring components in the chain;
- and that is the point about the V1 and Hugo TT - why do we need 2 pre-amps.

Jude
- I get what you're saying and agree about the 282 vs V1 pre.
- still have the issue of paying for something we're not using.
- and Naim only have the V1 and NDAC, with a big budget between them.

Allante93 - Yep, that's what I'm thinking too except for what Jude says about the better "performance" of the 282.

Halloween Man - "transparency" - that is the word I've been looking for, thanks !!!

Thanks again for this interesting conversation,

Allan

Allan Milne posted:

 So why have the dedicated pre-amps any more; surely they are purely additive in terms of colouring the sound and the fewer stages between source and speaker the better? 

When I considered expensively climbing the Naim ladder, price/performance and digital-only needs led me to Hugo TT direct into TP monoblocs (with sound colouring options available in Audirvana+ )