Swap NDX in place of nDAC & US: will sound quality go up, down, or sideways?

Hi Talan, I was debating whether to go US+NDAC vs NDX a couple of years back. In terms of SQ I think the former wins; as you yourself say the DAC in the NDX is not on par with the NDAC. I finally decided in favor of  the NDX taking other considerations (user interface, some comments on the reliability of the US..., the fact that additional services like Tidal integration are reserved for the streamers) into account as well. That being said, I share the view that both NDX and NDAC are a bit behind the current state of the art but this is not your question :-) 

I would also assume that the combination with the ndac wins, now pairing the HDX with an ndac and a xps or 555ps we are talking about a completely different level. Power supplies have in my humble opinion even a bigger impact.....

Tallan posted:

My current digital source(s) are a UnitiServe 2GB, Synology DS415play and an Auralic Aries Mini into an nDAC; downstream are a 282 & 200 feeding  Davone Grande speakers.

The main purpose of the Aries Mini is to provide Tidal streaming, but it occurs to me that I could simplify things and reduce my box count if I traded it and the nDAC (and perhaps the UnitiServe as well) in on an NDX.

My question is: what would this do to the sound quality?  Is it a step up, down, or sideways?  My dealer is an 8 hour drive away, so the usual "get a demo" isn't going to work for me.  Has anyone here made such a swap?

Besides rationalizing the digital side this move would allow me to control all my rooms with the Naim iOS and Android apps as well as move my Tidal stream into the Naim orbit but I do note that the specs for the DAC in the NDX are much reduced from those of the nDAC.  On the other hand fewer connections are almost always better, and the idea of freeing up counter/rack space is very appealing.  Plus if I include the US in the deal my out-of-pocket would be minimal.

What say? 

Off topic and I apologize but I see your profile shows you own a Uniti 2 also. How does feel it compares to the Auealic Aries Mini?

I would keep nDAC unless moving to NDS. You might then want to add ND5 or NDX for greater streaming function and add a PSU to nDAC at a later stage. It is often debated here that NDX/Hugo, or TT for that matter, may be alternatives to NDX/nDAC/555PS. It may however be a very close call now with the nDAC 4.11.8 firmware update last year. I am however not aware of any post comparing Hugo to 4.11.8.

Chag -

spurrier sucks posted:  

Off topic and I apologize but I see your profile shows you own a Uniti 2 also. How does feel it compares to the Auealic Aries Mini?

This is a hard question to answer as the Uniti2 is not just in a different room but on a different floor, so I've never done any kind of meaningful A/B comparison.  As a streamer I'm pretty impressed with the little Aries Mini, especially considering its very modest cost.  Overall however it's like comparing a good car to a good bicycle: both are well-engineered and viable means of transportation, but the car does SO much more it's almost impossible to consider them as being the same class of device.

Chag... posted:

I would keep nDAC unless moving to NDS. You might then want to add ND5 or NDX for greater streaming function and add a PSU to nDAC at a later stage. It is often debated here that NDX/Hugo, or TT for that matter, may be alternatives to NDX/nDAC/555PS. It may however be a very close call now with the nDAC 4.11.8 firmware update last year. I am however not aware of any post comparing Hugo to 4.11.8.

Chag -

Chag, the firmware changed the NDAC, it cleaned it up and gave more apparent detail.. this was achieved through optimising further the code, but the fundamentals to the DAC were not changed as that would require a change of hardware. 

 But the Hugo and NDAC/NDS are quite different and go about digital reconstruction in a very different way... you need to choose your poison as we all listen to things in our own way.. and reconstruction is ultimately subjective and lossy... a classic reason why one size doesn't necessarily fit all.

listen and compare the NDS/555PSDR and the Hugo... leave quite gap between listening to allow your brain to forget presentation differences and you should hear what I mean... I suspect one of them will make you grin like a little child, certainly with higher or highest end amplification... and it does seem to vary from person to person.

I tried following set ups UnitiServe with nDAC and NDX.
This is the ranking, as far as my ears are concerned (1 being the best):

1. NDX + nDAC
2. NDX
3. UnitiServe + nDAC

Adding a power supply to nDAC refines it further. Quality of the digital 'transport' is of paramount importance too.

I tried various UnitiServe + streamer/Dac options and would agree with Adam in that I preferred the  UnitiServe + NDX via networked Ethernet connection over UnitiServe + DAC via digital coax.

 I was not alone in reaching this conclusion and think if you do a forum search you will find that many feel the Serve + Streamer combination connected over a network is better than the Serve + DAC combination connected via coax. Though as is always the case you won't find 100% agreement on this.

I never tried the NDX + DAC combo so can't comment on that.

PS I see you are also considering selling the UnitiServe, which could change things as my advice is specifically in the context of using a UnitiServe to feed the streamer or DAC. 

Tallan posted:

spurrier sucks posted:  

Off topic and I apologize but I see your profile shows you own a Uniti 2 also. How does feel it compares to the Auealic Aries Mini?

This is a hard question to answer as the Uniti2 is not just in a different room but on a different floor, so I've never done any kind of meaningful A/B comparison.  As a streamer I'm pretty impressed with the little Aries Mini, especially considering its very modest cost.  Overall however it's like comparing a good car to a good bicycle: both are well-engineered and viable means of transportation, but the car does SO much more it's almost impossible to consider them as being the same class of device.

Thanks for the response. I also have both and was just curious off your thoughts. One day I'll connect the AAM to the U2 and compare for myself. Thanks again. 

I just recently had NDX in my setup for some time, I actually bought one just to notice later on that I still prefer the sound of USB bridge + Naim DAC. Source is my Win10 PC. NDX has this awesome boogie factor. It really makes your foot tap but even with as exciting sound as NDX has, the overall performance is worse than with Naim DAC. Naim DAC sounds smoother, silkier and more refined. It offers more insight to the recording, digging deeper and also paints a slightly larger soundstage. What was the final deal breaker to me was the sharpness in the NDX sound. It gave me listening fatigue in a long run. No such traits with Naim DAC. And my observations are made with a bare Naim DAC, with no PSU upgrade. 

DAC won in this house. The NDX is IMO the best value for money streamer in the ND  range but  using  the DAC  off board improves it. Your  ears  may disagree. I doubt the digital out on the US will  sound  different  from the digital out on the NDS, but again, your ears your choice.

Thanks, everyone, for your replies.  The consensus seems to be that the swap would be lateral at best and more likely a step short in terms of sound quality.  My only complaint, such as it is, with my current setup is a minor lack of convenience which is a limited issue whereas sound quality is pervasive.  In other words I think I'll just "grin and bare it," as the stripper said.

On a side note I don't understand why Naim has not updated the UnitiServe software or firmware to stream Tidal and Spotify, etc.  As I understand it the US is basically a Windows XP computer with added functionality.  As a one-time programmer I don't believe writing and testing a bit of code to add Tidal streaming would be either difficult or time-consuming, while it would add value and luster to the UnitiServe, both those already in use and those waiting on the shelf to be sold.  Obviously Naim promotes Tidal, and adding the service to the US line seems to me to be a logical and inexpensive way to refresh it and extend its relevancy.

Harry posted:

DAC won in this house. The NDX is IMO the best value for money streamer in the ND  range but  using  the DAC  off board improves it. Your  ears  may disagree. I doubt the digital out on the US will  sound  different  from the digital out on the NDS, but again, your ears your choice.

While I can't comment on the digital out of the US vs the digital out of an NDS, I can say that if I had to choose between using the UnitiServe as a server sitting on a network or using it as a player connected via digital output I would choose the former every time.  Before settling in my current UnitiServe + NDX setup I did extensive auditions of the streamers and DAC with the UnitiServe being the only constant.  While I think we all agree that the DAC is a better DAC than the DAC in the NDX it is the sum of the various components that is important .  The final audition I conducted was a blind one between the UnitiServe + DAC and UnitiServe + NDX and while it was a close, I chose the UnitiServe + NDX combo every time and think that the latter comes out on top largely due to the difference in how the UnitiServe is used in each instance.  This was just my personal experience but there are numerous threads/posts on the forum that share the same finding  (ie the UnitiServe is a better server than a player).

Hence my recommendation that deciding whether the UnitiServe stays or goes is an important part of the equation. 

Tallan posted:

On a side note I don't understand why Naim has not updated the UnitiServe software or firmware to stream Tidal and Spotify, etc.  As I understand it the US is basically a Windows XP computer with added functionality.  As a one-time programmer I don't believe writing and testing a bit of code to add Tidal streaming would be either difficult or time-consuming, while it would add value and luster to the UnitiServe, both those already in use and those waiting on the shelf to be sold.  Obviously Naim promotes Tidal, and adding the service to the US line seems to me to be a logical and inexpensive way to refresh it and extend its relevancy.

I seem to remember that reason naim gave is that they see the Serve and streamers as two different products and that the UnitiServe's main purpose is to serve files whereas the streamers main purpose is to stream them and they see Spotify (and now Tidal) as sitting in the latter products.  I tried to find the post where this was mentioned but it may take a bit more digging. 

For me US plays an important role on our home network. It rips, stores and administers music to various streamers. It is off to Sailsbury now for some TLC. NAS is up and running with Minimserver, but I do miss my US.

I don't use it's digital outputs to play music - dedicated streamers do it much better as far as my ears are concerned  

I have never had a US so forgive my questions,  but once all the CD are ripped what does a US do that other components won't/don't/can't do.  It's ripping protocol is a bit strange as it rips to WAV but does something different with metadata so its not usable from other servers without manipulation.       OK its not so easy, but its hardly difficult, so whats so bad about PC or Mac rips using various (& excellent) www ripping programs,  they can be ripped directly to or uploaded to NAS with normal metadata programing.   Then once all the CD's are ripped, what next? most users then start to download high-res 24-bit PCM & other formats such as DSD.    Does a US do more that I'm missing & does it really have an SQ & play all the formats that is so much better than a regular NAS ?   I'm sorry if I'm offending, or missing something, I just want to understand. 

Mike - there is a difference (at least to my ears) when I hear a bare NAS and a UnitiServe. I also like the functionality of a UnitiServe via an iPad app.

I'm not trying to post-rationalise a purchase I have made I genuinly like how the Unitiserve works and sounds. And it annoys me that it's not as robust as it ought to be

Many of us wish a US2, whether HDD or SSD. As suggested in other posts, please make them à la Melco.

Chag -

King Size posted:

Harry posted:

DAC won in this house. The NDX is IMO the best value for money streamer in the ND  range but  using  the DAC  off board improves it. Your  ears  may disagree. I doubt the digital out on the US will  sound  different  from the digital out on the NDS, but again, your ears your choice.

While I can't comment on the digital out of the US vs the digital out of an NDS, I can say that if I had to choose between using the UnitiServe as a server sitting on a network or using it as a player connected via digital output I would choose the former every time.  Before settling in my current UnitiServe + NDX setup I did extensive auditions of the streamers and DAC with the UnitiServe being the only constant.  While I think we all agree that the DAC is a better DAC than the DAC in the NDX it is the sum of the various components that is important .  The final audition I conducted was a blind one between the UnitiServe + DAC and UnitiServe + NDX and while it was a close, I chose the UnitiServe + NDX combo every time and think that the latter comes out on top largely due to the difference in how the UnitiServe is used in each instance.  This was just my personal experience but there are numerous threads/posts on the forum that share the same finding  (ie the UnitiServe is a better server than a player).

Hence my recommendation that deciding whether the UnitiServe stays or goes is an important part of the equation. 

Thanks for this!  I have one question: when you rigged the US to the DAC what output and cable did you use?  I initially had a mid-range Nordost (retail $500 but bought on sale for 50% off) BNC and found the result to be flat and somewhat dull & lifeless.  Recently I replaced that cable with Naim's BNC and the result has been a big improvement: the life, sparkle, clarity and PRAT are back as they should be.

US was connected to the DAC via the Digital SPDIF out Using Naim's DC1 cable.

Very interesting.  When I was researching the purchase of the UnitiServe I found multiple sources which claimed the BNC connection sounded best, so that's what I've used.  I am NOT saying that your conclusions are in any way in error, but the different output and cabling introduces an untested variable.

Tallan posted:

Very interesting.  When I was researching the purchase of the UnitiServe I found multiple sources which claimed the BNC connection sounded best, so that's what I've used.  I am NOT saying that your conclusions are in any way in error, only that the different output and cabling introduces an untested variable.

Oh - it does. There is a lot more to digital playback than just zeroes and ones though... UnitiServe is a good server, but as a digital tranport for music playback through a DAC it's just average. NDX in a digital out mode outperforms it quite easily (also ND5XS is better than a UnitiServe).

Thanks, Adam, that's good information to consider.  The problem is that adding an NDX compounds my box count issue (lack of space) and then there's the issue of cost.  As 95% of my CD collection is already ripped I could sell the US on and replace it with an NDX (which would solve my convenience and Tidal streaming issues) but still at a rather hefty additional cost.  Is the improvement worth a $4-7 grand premium?

Tallan posted:

Thanks, Adam, that's good information to consider.  The problem is that adding an NDX compounds my box count issue (lack of space) and then there's the issue of cost.  As 95% of my CD collection is already ripped I could sell the US on and replace it with an NDX (which would solve my convenience and Tidal streaming issues) but still at a rather hefty additional cost.  Is the improvement worth a $4-7 grand premium?

There are some forum members who would advocate you sell your US. There are also some who would say you should keep it (I'm firmly in that camp). 

To answer your second question: most definitely yes. There should be some good second-hand units available. NDX has been on a market for a while now.

You will find that the further up you go with sound quality, the incremental price increases will be exhibiting what would appear to be siginificantly diminishing returns to scale