Swap NDX in place of nDAC & US: will sound quality go up, down, or sideways?

Thanks again, I will definitely give this more thought.  As for buying used, however, the 3 or 4 times I've asked my dealer (a major NYC retailer) "Do you ever get a Naim XXX in on trade?" the answer has been "No."  Right now he has a couple of pieces of Naim ex-demo kit on offer, but no NDX.

I think the idea that the BNC connection is best could stem from the time before Naim did network streamers, where if you wanted a naim-only set up you only choice was UnitiServe into DAC via BNC.  I even had to convince my dealer that the comparison was worth doing.  

Ideally you need to try the NDX and see if you like it in your system.  If you do, you could replace both the Auralic Aries and the DAC with an NDX, which would reduce the box count by one and give you Tidal streaming. Also remember that if you buy second hand it will need to be the later model NDX to have the Tidal functionality.

If I recall correctly TIDAL integration was added around summer / early autumn 2015, with a firmware update 4.4

King Size posted:

Also remember that if you buy second hand it will need to be the later model NDX to have the Tidal functionality.

Tidal works with the older model NDX also, you just need to update the firmware to the latest version. 

Files ripped by a US can be used by other servers without manipulation. 

Patu posted:

King Size posted:

Also remember that if you buy second hand it will need to be the later model NDX to have the Tidal functionality.

Tidal works with the older model NDX also, you just need to update the firmware to the latest version. 

I am aware of updating the firmware to the latest version (this is what I did with mine).  To clarify, by 'later model' I specifically mean the updated version with the 24bit/192kHz streaming board that was introduced in 2011.  As far as I know it does not work with the original version released in 2010, I certainly know this is the case with Spotify integration. Hope  this clears up what I meant.

My assessment of this is the OP has a NAS, US, Aries Mini and nDAC (4 boxes, 2 being standard Naim and 2 different), and wants to reduce box count, or perhaps more significantly reduce the space occupied, wanting an improvement in SQ, but wary of spending $4-7k unless SQ improvement is massive.

An options not yet suggested include would be to replace the NAS, US and Aries with Mac Mini running Audirvana (and dBpoweramp for ripping), direct into nDAC. Box count =2, one much mmaller than standard Naim box, though an external CD drive would need to be connected at the time of any required CD ripping. From my personal experience I can say this beats the SQ of ND5XS as renderer, and others who have compared on these forums have suggested it is at least as good as using an NDX as renderer, so very likely to be an improvement over the current system, at considerably less than even $4k. The music store could then be in the Mac Mini, obviating the need for streaming music across the network. Audirvana integrates with Tidal, Qobuz and Highresaudio online streaming services.

An extension to the above would be to replace nDAC with either a Hugo plus an isolator such as Gustard U12 (needed between MM and Hugo as latter doesn't have adequate RF rejection), or at about double the cost the even better HugoTT (isolator not required). Many people who have compared consider the Hugo series to portray music better than the Naim DACs, often described as being more 'organic' or more analog-like, however it is a matter of personal preference and you certainly should hear given that the nDAC is regarded by many to be good. 

Re my last post, if you go for secondhand Mac Mini, the best is widely considered to be the 'late 2012' version because that was the last one that could have RAM and Disc drives easily DIY upgraded. Buying new ensure adequate RAM and disk drive capacity given difficulty addind more later, though external storage capacity can always be added if needed.

There was a review once of the unitiserve going BNC to Ndac, compared to HDX going BNC to Ndac and there was a clear preference for the HDX combo.  Stating that the proper power supply in the HDX could be heard positively against the serve's. 

So my guess the best combo would be HDX to NDX with Ndac.      Considering the HDX is almost twice the price of the serve and many think the serve is redundant - you would be in a small minority to go ahead with it

Innocent Bystander posted:

An options not yet suggested include would be to replace the NAS, US and Aries with Mac Mini running Audirvana (and dBpoweramp for ripping), direct into nDAC. Box count =2, one much mmaller than standard Naim box, though an external CD drive would need to be connected at the time of any required CD ripping. From my personal experience I can say this beats the SQ of ND5XS as renderer, and others who have compared on these forums have suggested it is at least as good as using an NDX as renderer, so very likely to be an improvement over the current system, at considerably less than even $4k. The music store could then be in the Mac Mini, obviating the need for streaming music across the network. Audirvana integrates with Tidal, Qobuz and Highresaudio online streaming services.

As I have a Mac Mini sitting on a shelf unused this is intriguing; I'm not sure what year it's from, but it has a DVD drive and an i5 CPU with a 750GB 7200 RPM disk I put in replacing the stock 320GB 5400 RPM.

But how does it go "direct" into the nDAC?  Also can the software you mention be run headless once installed, via an iPad, for example?  I don't have the space, either physically or aesthetically, for a screen, mouse, & keyboard.

As for the Hugo solution I'm really not interested; I have no way to audition that kit and I'm very happy with the synergy using Naim with Naim provides.

King Size posted:

Tallan posted:

On a side note I don't understand why Naim has not updated the UnitiServe software or firmware to stream Tidal and Spotify, etc.  As I understand it the US is basically a Windows XP computer with added functionality.  As a one-time programmer I don't believe writing and testing a bit of code to add Tidal streaming would be either difficult or time-consuming, while it would add value and luster to the UnitiServe, both those already in use and those waiting on the shelf to be sold.  Obviously Naim promotes Tidal, and adding the service to the US line seems to me to be a logical and inexpensive way to refresh it and extend its relevancy.

I seem to remember that reason naim gave is that they see the Serve and streamers as two different products and that the UnitiServe's main purpose is to serve files whereas the streamers main purpose is to stream them and they see Spotify (and now Tidal) as sitting in the latter products.  I tried to find the post where this was mentioned but it may take a bit more digging. 

As I recall this is a true reposition of the Naim position - I don't see it this way.  The UnitiServe has player functionality  and Internet radio functionality. Spotify and Tidal are modern player requirements.

 I see it as the UnitiServe and HDX being treated as old legacy products built on old Windows XP technology not being kept up to date.

TOBYJUG posted:

There was a review once of the unitiserve going BNC to Ndac, compared to HDX going BNC to Ndac and there was a clear preference for the HDX combo.  Stating that the proper power supply in the HDX could be heard positively against the serve's. 

So my guess the best combo would be HDX to NDX with Ndac.      Considering the HDX is almost twice the price of the serve and many think the serve is redundant - you would be in a small minority to go ahead with it

If I understand correctly the UnitiServe had an updated/improved powersuply that might have changed this. 

Tallan posted:

Innocent Bystander posted:

An options not yet suggested include would be to replace the NAS, US and Aries with Mac Mini running Audirvana (and dBpoweramp for ripping), direct into nDAC. Box count =2, one much mmaller than standard Naim box, though an external CD drive would need to be connected at the time of any required CD ripping. From my personal experience I can say this beats the SQ of ND5XS as renderer, and others who have compared on these forums have suggested it is at least as good as using an NDX as renderer, so very likely to be an improvement over the current system, at considerably less than even $4k. The music store could then be in the Mac Mini, obviating the need for streaming music across the network. Audirvana integrates with Tidal, Qobuz and Highresaudio online streaming services.

As I have a Mac Mini sitting on a shelf unused this is intriguing; I'm not sure what year it's from, but it has a DVD drive and an i5 CPU with a 750GB 7200 RPM disk I put in replacing the stock 320GB 5400 RPM.

But how does it go "direct" into the nDAC?  Also can the software you mention be run headless once installed, via an iPad, for example?  I don't have the space, either physically or aesthetically, for a screen, mouse, & keyboard.

By direct I meant simple cable connection (usb): as far as I'm aware no isolator is needed to nDAC, unlike some DACs.

Minimum Mac Mini spec to run Audirvana is 64bit Mac (Core 2 Duo or later), OSX 10.9 (Mavericks) or later, 2GB RAM (4GB or more better but 2GB should do to trial.

Yes to headless: that's how Most people use it. There's an Audirvana control app to use from phone or tablet etc (works well on iPad) however unlike the program itself I don't think its available for free trial - but MM can be controlled from any remote computer or tablet etc using remote  control software (I use VNC which is free), and although it's more cumbersome than using the Audiv app it doesn't have any effect on sound quality so is fine for initial evaluation. 

Paul Quigley ie posted:

TOBYJUG posted:

There was a review once of the unitiserve going BNC to Ndac, compared to HDX going BNC to Ndac and there was a clear preference for the HDX combo.  Stating that the proper power supply in the HDX could be heard positively against the serve's. 

So my guess the best combo would be HDX to NDX with Ndac.      Considering the HDX is almost twice the price of the serve and many think the serve is redundant - you would be in a small minority to go ahead with it

If I understand correctly the UnitiServe had an updated/improved powersuply that might have changed this. 

Unofficially no. But sure many would wish that true

Innocent Bystander posted:

Tallan posted:

Innocent Bystander posted:

An options not yet suggested include would be to replace the NAS, US and Aries with Mac Mini running Audirvana (and dBpoweramp for ripping), direct into nDAC. Box count =2, one much mmaller than standard Naim box, though an external CD drive would need to be connected at the time of any required CD ripping. From my personal experience I can say this beats the SQ of ND5XS as renderer, and others who have compared on these forums have suggested it is at least as good as using an NDX as renderer, so very likely to be an improvement over the current system, at considerably less than even $4k. The music store could then be in the Mac Mini, obviating the need for streaming music across the network. Audirvana integrates with Tidal, Qobuz and Highresaudio online streaming services.

As I have a Mac Mini sitting on a shelf unused this is intriguing; I'm not sure what year it's from, but it has a DVD drive and an i5 CPU with a 750GB 7200 RPM disk I put in replacing the stock 320GB 5400 RPM.

But how does it go "direct" into the nDAC?  Also can the software you mention be run headless once installed, via an iPad, for example?  I don't have the space, either physically or aesthetically, for a screen, mouse, & keyboard.

By direct I meant simple cable connection (usb): as far as I'm aware no isolator is needed to nDAC, unlike some DACs.

 

The USB input on the nDAC has printed above it "For iPod, iTouch, iPhone and USB memory only."  In another Forum thread I was told it does not support server or computer input, so it doesn't sound promising.  I've never tested it, however.

Of course there is optical TOSLINK input, but I'm not sure if my Mini has optical out via the speaker/headphone port, which is a fairly recent feature and in any case TOSLINK limits the resolution to 96kHz and I have quite a few music files encoded at resolutions higher than that.

Tallan posted:

Innocent Bystander posted:

Tallan posted:

Innocent Bystander posted:

An options not yet suggested include would be to replace the NAS, US and Aries with Mac Mini running Audirvana (and dBpoweramp for ripping), direct into nDAC. Box count =2, one much mmaller than standard Naim box, though an external CD drive would need to be connected at the time of any required CD ripping. From my personal experience I can say this beats the SQ of ND5XS as renderer, and others who have compared on these forums have suggested it is at least as good as using an NDX as renderer, so very likely to be an improvement over the current system, at considerably less than even $4k. The music store could then be in the Mac Mini, obviating the need for streaming music across the network. Audirvana integrates with Tidal, Qobuz and Highresaudio online streaming services.

As I have a Mac Mini sitting on a shelf unused this is intriguing; I'm not sure what year it's from, but it has a DVD drive and an i5 CPU with a 750GB 7200 RPM disk I put in replacing the stock 320GB 5400 RPM.

But how does it go "direct" into the nDAC?  Also can the software you mention be run headless once installed, via an iPad, for example?  I don't have the space, either physically or aesthetically, for a screen, mouse, & keyboard.

By direct I meant simple cable connection (usb): as far as I'm aware no isolator is needed to nDAC, unlike some DACs.

 

The USB input on the nDAC has printed above it "For iPod, iTouch, iPhone and USB memory only."  In another Forum thread I was told it does not support server or computer input, so it doesn't sound promising.  I've never tested it, however.

Of course there is optical TOSLINK input, but I'm not sure if my Mini has optical out via the speaker/headphone port, which is a fairly recent feature and in any case TOSLINK limits the resolution to 96kHz and I have quite a few music files encoded at resolutions higher than that.

You can't connect computer with USB cable to nDAC. It's just as said on the DAC, only for USB sticks, iPads etc. You need an USB bridge to connect computer to Naim DAC (I use TeddyPardo U2S but there plenty of options). This also sounds much better than direct connection from PC. 

Sorry, I had forgotten that limitation with the nDAC: I remembered that only one of the Naim DACs had a usb input, and so had a quick look at a picture of the nDAC and, seeing usb socket, assumed it was that one. Now it comes back to me, Richard Dane's current evaluation of the Gustard U12 is as a USB converter that can connect usb sources to the nDAC: so a Gustard is also needed (but it is neither expensive nor a big box, though clearly requires an expense ro trial)

So after due consideration today I called my dealer to ask if on the off chance he has a demo NDX he'd sell, and he does!  "But it doesn't support Bluetooth..."  "How old is it?" asks I, warily.  

"5 or 6 years..."  Yikes!

Long story short it is too old to support BT or more importantly Tidal without a long trip back to the factory, and I decided to go with a new ND5 xs instead, so that's streaming and Tidal sorted.  My space concerns were alleviated when I realized that the ND5 will mean I can stream from my US via any convenient Ethernet connection, of which I have many, and it will no longer need to be within BNC cable length of the nDAC. 

I figured the biggest differences between the NDX & ND5 is in their DACs, neither of which I'd use.  In any event the ND5 has been glowingly reviewed and I'm positive it will be a big step up in SQ and convenience from what I'm using now.

Thanks to everyone for their input!

Tallan posted: 

The USB input on the nDAC has printed above it "For iPod, iTouch, iPhone and USB memory only."  In another Forum thread I was told it does not support server or computer input, so it doesn't sound promising.  I've never tested it, however.

Of course there is optical TOSLINK input, but I'm not sure if my Mini has optical out via the speaker/headphone port, which is a fairly recent feature and in any case TOSLINK limits the resolution to 96kHz and I have quite a few music files encoded at resolutions higher than that.

Mac Minis have had the Toslink for many years. It's not a recent feature. Don't worry about the 96khz limit. You won't hear any difference between that and 192khz.

Just to be clear: Bluetooth functionality came in to NDX in the autmn of 2015. But a 5-6 year old NDX.... good that you've passed on.

ND5XS - if you are going to use it as a digital transport - good move.

Tallan posted:

 

I figured the biggest differences between the NDX & ND5 is in their DACs, neither of which I'd use.  

And of course the PSU and resulting DSP transport clock stability and implementation.

Adam Zielinski posted:

Just to be clear: Bluetooth functionality came in to NDX in the autmn of 2015. But a 5-6 year old NDX.... good that you've passed on.

ND5XS - if you are going to use it as a digital transport - good move.

Yep, that's the plan!  I'm going to mate the Auralic Aries Mini with a pair of powered Audioengine speakers I have in the TV nook as a little mini-system; should do nicely.

Simon-in-Suffolk posted:

Tallan posted:

 

I figured the biggest differences between the NDX & ND5 is in their DACs, neither of which I'd use.  

And of course the PSU and resulting DSP transport clock stability and implementation.

Someday if I'm flush I can add a power supply to the ND5XS, probably a XP5XS.

Tallan posted:

Adam Zielinski posted:

Just to be clear: Bluetooth functionality came in to NDX in the autmn of 2015. But a 5-6 year old NDX.... good that you've passed on.

ND5XS - if you are going to use it as a digital transport - good move.

Yep, that's the plan!  I'm going to mate the Auralic Aries Mini with a pair of powered Audioengine speakers I have in the TV nook as a little mini-system; should do nicely.

I presume you will connect the ND5XS to your nDAC (say, via DC1). With an XPS on the nDAC you will have a very good streamer.

Two points worth noting here:

1. If you like FM radio, you can actually get ND5XS with an FM/DAB module. Even if it runs via a digial connection, FM broadcast will still be playable. That is how I run my NDX with an FM module.

2. To ge the best of the nDAC a 555PS is needed. Ideally a pre-DR version. You can see a thread on this in the HiFi corner.

Tallan posted:

Simon-in-Suffolk posted:

Tallan posted:

 

I figured the biggest differences between the NDX & ND5 is in their DACs, neither of which I'd use.  

And of course the PSU and resulting DSP transport clock stability and implementation.

Someday if I'm flush I can add a power supply to the ND5XS, probably a XP5XS.

You'd be better off with a 555ps on your nDAC