Gumtree - Ebay Scam warning for Members - Please Read and make others aware - Thanks

Andy, I've moved your post as its not directly about hifi per se. However, I'm sorry to hear you have fallen prey to what appears to be criminal activity.  It's worth reiterating that buying any secondhand equipment outside of well known dealers comes with a degree of risk.  Free ad sites carry by far the highest level of risk and I'd guess that the vast majority of ads for Naim kit that are found there, particular where the price is a bit too keen to be true, are bogus and are lures set by scammers.  Also, don't think that going to pick up a bit of kit with a pocket full of cash is any safer either - this is a particularly nasty scam where you not only lose your money but you get beaten up too.  

So, to anyone looking to buy secondhand, do your homework, only buy from a source you trust or where there's some kind of comeback and as always, if it looks too good to be true, it invariably is...

Thanks Richard....and excellent advice also.

As a footnote, good advice from both Andy and Richard.

I do a bit of trading in Gibson guitars, and it is not uncommon to discover, as Andy says, that a current listing has been lifted from a previously completed one.

Equally, Richard's advice regarding travelling with a pocketful of cash is sound, though I tend to mitigate against this by meeting in a public area, rather than a "home" address.

Always check a seller's feedback, and be wary of a high value item appearing against a history of smaller sales.

Sadly, eBay's policy tends not to favour the scammed buyer, and that of their subsidiary, Gumtree, even less so.

I've had no problems buying Naim kit over on the Fishy thing, but the same caution applies, as many have.

Sorry to read of your bad experience Andy, hope Gumtree do the right thing and refund you. 

Dave.

Thanks Dave....but I don't think I will see a penny from Gumtree...and I think my money is long gone, unfortunately.  I have to resign myself to that, so for me the next best thing is to help others not to be scammed, by alerting them to this problem and to make life as unbearable as I can for the scammers.

Andrew

Well, fingers crossed, and, since you mentioned "geoffatacoustica" above, he is, in fact, my go to Naim dealer, and can be 100% recommended when it comes to his listings on traded in gear.

Dave.

dave marshall posted:

Well, fingers crossed, and, since you mentioned "geoffatacoustica" above, he is, in fact, my go to Naim dealer, and can be 100% recommended when it comes to his listings on traded in gear.

Dave.

+1 couldn't agree more

Moderated Post:  Andy I have removed this post.  There is, as yet, nothing to indicate that this is the same person.  The name may well have been borrowed intentionally to mislead. 

Now that is scary.  I have bought and sold some pretty expensive items on eBay many times without ever having a problem. I always do my research but that is a worry 

We should cut peoples hands off for theft. Scum like this are just in and out of prison all the time 

Andy,

You are not alone.

I have never had a problem using Ebay, but I lost quite a bit of money (significantly more than your loss) on Audiogon just over a year ago.

I won the auction and foolishly agreed to pay for the item by electronic bank transfer. I had bank account details for the seller (a Barclays bank account based in Nottingham), mobile and telephone details, and I had exchanged quite a number of emails and had several mobile phone conversations with the seller. Both he and the item sounded very genuine. Unfortunately, I heard nothing more from him after the money was transferred. It very soon became obvious that I had been scammed, and I contacted my own bank and Barclays Bank just over a day after I had transferred the money to inform them that I was worried that I had been the victim of a scam. I also contacted the police more or less immediately to report the scam.

Unfortunately, the outcome in my case was that:

Audiogon refused to accept any responsibility, but simply removed any trace of the item from their auction site.

My own bank simply stated there was nothing that they could do once the money had left my account - this was pretty much what I had expected. There was indeed very little they could do.

Barclays Bank fraud department contacted me some time later to say that they were not going to take the matter further, since by the time they had investigated my complaint, the bank account in question was empty. When I asked them if  they could provide the police with information about the person or company who had set up the account, and how long that account had been in existence, or information about the account into which my money had been onward transferred, they simply replied to say that 'customer confidentiality prevented them from divulging any information' about the bank account or account holder. When I pressed them about their responsibility in respect of 'due diligence' when individuals open and use bank accounts fraudulently, and when I asked them if they had expended any effort whatsoever in investigating this fraud, they simply responded by letter to say that if I wished to make a complaint I should contact the relevant financial regulation authority.       

The police thanked me for the information I had provided (Bank Account details of the fraudster, multiple emails and details of telephone calls) and simply stated that the information I had provided might help prevent any future scams occurring. I have heard nothing more from them.

The unfortunate reality is that scams like this occur very frequently nowadays, and almost always result in the fraudster getting away scot free. The police simply do not have anything remotely like the resources they would require to investigate even a small fraction of the frauds that occur, and the Banks (whose accounts are used to perpetrate the frauds) are either incapable of, or more likely have no appetite for any action whatsoever on their part.

I really sympathise with you, but I am afraid this is just indicative of the culture and times in which we live. I have learnt my lesson, and will never again purchase anything on an auction site using anything other than a credit card or Paypal. I have since then paid for holiday accommodation abroad by means of electronic bank transfer (as I have done on many occasions in the past without any problems), but I must admit on this occasion with quite a bit of trepidation.    

Good luck with respect to your own case.

Thank for your post Hmack...I too am sorry that you went through a similar situation.

It is also disquieting that there seems to be little that can be done about these fraudsters, or at least that the police are not taking matters further for whatever reason.  This means that such criminals are getting away with it and more or less acting with impunity!

I find that hard to stomach....and even though I will never see my money again...I am saddened that so many others are losing vast amount of money to these scams....with the additional psychological impact of such incidents.

I, personally, will do more research and ask more questions about this and try to find a way to bring the fraudsters in my case to justice. I don't give up easily.  But I am fully aware that it may come to nothing in the long run.

Regards

Andrew

Simple rule - NEVER pay by bank transfer to someone unknown to you unless you have the goods first.

G

dayjay posted:

dave marshall posted:

Well, fingers crossed, and, since you mentioned "geoffatacoustica" above, he is, in fact, my go to Naim dealer, and can be 100% recommended when it comes to his listings on traded in gear.

Dave.

+1 couldn't agree more

+2  a thoroughly trustworthy dealer 

(in Chester,  a Roman town in the cold NorthWest - well it seems cold when you're originally from down south)

I had a look at Craigslist the other week. Some amazing deals on top end gear in London area! Two were of a bit of interest to me, but seemed much too good to be true. I got quite good responses to my questions but both went totally silent when I made it clear I wanted to at least see the goods before parting with the cash!

On a slightly different subject. My brother used to sell stamps on eBay, and when selling a rare stamp was suddenly receiving questions of how he was selling what appeared to be the exact same stamp as someone else. When he checked, someone had literally copied his ad, words, pic everything. He reported it to eBay who couldn't have given a damn. He started corresponding with the guy selling the scam stamp, and discovered the guy lived very close to him, and eventually challenged him that he knew he was trying to defraud people, and the guy admitted it, and seemed quite amused that he had been tumbled. Bro put all the correspondence together and took it too his local police station, who pretty much said so what, what do you want us to do about it. Guess they are limited in resource, but the response was so offhand that my brother wished he hadn't bothered trying to protect both himself and others, by shopping the guy

Caveat Emtor allied with Laissez Faire seems to be the the order of the day with the authorities. 

What I usually do if it's a distance sale and I have reservations is I ask for a picture of the item with a fork, egg-cup or daily paper on top or beside it. 

I find PFM a relatively safe place as you can practically profile a seller by doing a search of posts. 

SJB

Sorry Andy to hear about your bad experience. What makes these matters worse is the indifference shown by these sites to such problems. There is a way to stop or at least reduce such incidents and that is to make the sites responsible for these losses, they can afford it. This of course would require governments to make appropriate laws. Unfortunately governments in general are afraid of big business as is indicated by the recent Irish matter regarding tax. They are not the only ones.

philip

I had a box of checks that was stolen before delivery once, and then they thieves made up their own checks with my routing and account number and went shopping...I noticed when they started clearing my account.

My bank immediately refunded the money to me, but was completely disinterested in any info that might help them track down the perps. What was even more disquieting was the police could not have been less interested when I contacted them - and not so much for my purpose because I had been remunerated, but to get them and prevent others from being hurt.

At the time I remember thinking (not seriously of course) that maybe I should try the same scam, since it appears there is no way to get in trouble since no one in authority cared.

I and I am sure others appreciate your forthrightness in sharing what happened to you and serving as an object lesson for the rest of us. I am sorry you & HMACK had to endure that.

Similar experience to Drmark re. my bank. Got a phonecall from my bank one Saturday morning, while lyeing in bed in Lancashire, asking if I was shopping in Kuala Lumpar. Seemed someone was using my card, for a shopping binge. Found out the same day that the card of a friend who we had been on holiday with was also being used fraudulently. There was probably the only one common place ever where we had both used our cards - a hotel in Thailand where we both used our cards to settle our room accounts. Was pleased I got my money back quickly from the bank, but amazed at the lack of interest when I notified the banks security people of the above - think the response was - 'well I guess that's quite interesting. Is there anything else I can help you with today'

Best bet is to always use Credit Card or PayPal, you'll get fraud protection and piece of mind - maybe even reward points or cash back.   The banks care, it's just when it is out of their country its tricky to deal with.  But this is why buying patterns and early alerts are important to have a feedback loop to the customer and the bank to minimize the fraud loss.

A cautionary tale with PayPal. My son sold an iPad and was indeed paid through PayPal. The mistake he made was that once the money was visible in his PayPal account, he physically handed the iPad over to the scumbag purchaser. 3 months later we found out that the PayPal account the purchaser was using was funded by stolen credit card details. The real owner of the credit card saw the fraudulent transaction, and PayPal then hoovered the £200 back from my sons PayPal account. Result? 1 iPad down plus £200 debt, and PayPal less than interested in the fraud that had taken place. A lesson to my son that in this situation there has to be PROOF that the item was handed over to any purchaser. I guess never hand over goods unless you have been paid in cash? But then that raises the issues Richard highlights about personal security.

DrMark posted:

I had a box of checks that was stolen before delivery once, and then they thieves made up their own checks with my routing and account number and went shopping. My bank immediately refunded the money to me, but was completely disinterested in any info that might help them track down the perps. What was even more disquieting was the police could not have been less interested when I contacted them - and not so much for my purpose because I had been remunerated, but to get them and prevent others from being hurt.

I think the banks and police have to look at the best use of their time and budget, and unfortunately the expense of investigating and prosecuting petty perps is probably not cost-effective. Cheaper in the end for the banks to reimburse you for your loss. Realistically, there's little chance of recovering monies from thieves that have no assets to begin with. The whole scenario simply exemplifies the vicious cycle of high credit card rates, those that spend beyond their means and are over their heads in debt, and why the banks never loose in the end.

badger1963 posted:

A cautionary tale with PayPal......... PayPal less than interested in the fraud that had taken place. A lesson to my son that in this situation there has to be PROOF that the item was handed over to any purchaser. 

I do not use PayPal and was surprised by this - but it is absolutely right -

The PayPal charge back guide says - A chargeback happens when a buyer asks their credit card issuer to reverse a transaction that has already cleared. This can mean that a payment you’ve received in your PayPal account could be reversed, even if you’ve already posted the goods – which can of course be frustrating. 

PayPal will help you as much as possible if you wish to dispute a chargeback, but the final decision lies with the credit card company. However you can also get protection with PayPal's Seller Protection policy.

The Seller Protection Policy states "To be eligible for Seller Protection, we require two types of evidence for protection eligibility. A digital or physical proof that the item was sent by the seller, and proof that the item was delivered by the delivery company.

Who knew?

Thank you badger1963

badger1963 posted:

A cautionary tale with PayPal. My son sold an iPad and was indeed paid through PayPal. The mistake he made was that once the money was visible in his PayPal account, he physically handed the iPad over to the scumbag purchaser. 3 months later we found out that the PayPal account the purchaser was using was funded by stolen credit card details. The real owner of the credit card saw the fraudulent transaction, and PayPal then hoovered the £200 back from my sons PayPal account. Result? 1 iPad down plus £200 debt, and PayPal less than interested in the fraud that had taken place. A lesson to my son that in this situation there has to be PROOF that the item was handed over to any purchaser. I guess never hand over goods unless you have been paid in cash? But then that raises the issues Richard highlights about personal security.

Simple rule 2 - NEVER offer collection for paypal payments & ALWAYS send to the purchasers registered paypal address if using that method. Payments can still be retracted.

G

Simple rule 0 since time immemorial - why on earth would you face-to-face hand over an item of value without receiving hard cash in hand on the spot? Internet transactions can be a virtual reality, cash is real. If someone's got the money in PayPal they ought to be able to produce the cash in person. Sad lesson in life earned for IB's son, but I'm sure he'll be wiser in the future. Kids are trusting. I know mine are and I always worry for them.