so how do you demo?

Home demo's are the stuff of long ago legends... Very few dealers* will let you do anything like it.

* ?.

Not so - with more audio salons than bricks-and-mortar retailers in some markets, home demos ARE the only demos. I've changed my thinking about this over the years, as it has become far easier to support customers remotely (and for customers to support themselves / pool expertise, etc.).

Some of us don't live near dealers - for me it is a minimum of a flight and whatever local travel if I am not carrying significant kit, or a ferry journey, local travel and overnight stay if I do need significant carrying capacity. That is to audition at a dealer. 

Not many dealers will allow home auditioning by post, and for those that do it is normal to require a deposit of 100% value of all items being compared, so quite something to organise if you want several things - and oversea transport can be difficult to insure fully, so can carry significant financial risk.

When  recently I changed my speakers, I took mine, and amp, for a mammoth trek to three locations over two days - my old speakers were to provide a reference in the different listening rooms, and amp to besure I was hearing with what they would be powered with. Meanwhile I have managed to find a source of DACs to compare at home having heard at a dealer in dealer's system and decided further investigation is warranted (though with aforesaid deposit and transport risk)

A-B comparisons of course - at home initially doing myself, but unless a huge difference I'd get one of my sons to change over for 'blind' confirmation, which is about as far as it's practical to go. And if away from home, taking a selection of music I'm familiar with (dealers seem to like trying to force me to listen to jazz!)

I think you're thinking along the right lines. In a perfect world you might think we should all be doing all our demos at home, with no time limits, but in the real world of course that's not going to happen.

At a dealers, though, take all the time you want. At no time have I ever felt the slightest pressure to make a decision, get my wallet out, or leave the dem room because I've taken up too much of their time. I'm pretty sure their margins are big enough to allow this.

On my last couple of visits to my dealer, I took my Unitiserve with me, which made life very easy, although a USB stick would have done the job. Your point about volume is a good one. I always think it's a sign of a good system that it can perform well at low volumes.....and my wife agrees.

....and of the demo'd items abilities. As opposed to my gestalt facility to listen.      Only thing closed should be depth of pocket.

"Buy, and demo at leisure" is fairly practical if you live in a larger market, with plenty of dealers willing to help you transition for a reasonable fee.  The key is to buy popular pieces, new or used, with high residuals, which is usually a pleasant experience at any rate.

I always need more time to evaluate than is reasonable for anybody to lend me a piece, so am resigned to buying.

Nick

Stage 1 - At a dealers with kit that is as close to mine as possible even if this means taking some of my kit with me.  This is to whittle down several options to perhaps two options.  I take music with me that I know well that covers a range of genres and that includes well recorded and less well recorded music.

Stage 2 - At home with no more than two items to decide final option.  I don't do a/b test or blind tests.  I put a component in for as long as possible and get used to its sound and then I take it out and see how much I miss that sound over a period of time.

Upgrades - Some upgrades, such as the hicap dr on my sn2, I borrowed from my dealer for a couple of weeks and just followed stage 2.

Innocent - won't complain about the 18 miles to my dealer again ...

DayJay - good point about taking a component away and sseeing how much (if at all) you mis it.

Allan

dayjay posted:

Stage 1 - At a dealers with kit that is as close to mine as possible even if this means taking some of my kit with me.  This is to whittle down several options to perhaps two options.  I take music with me that I know well that covers a range of genres and that includes well recorded and less well recorded music.

Stage 2 - At home with no more than two items to decide final option.  I don't do a/b test or blind tests.  I put a component in for as long as possible and get used to its sound and then I take it out and see how much I miss that sound over a period of time.

Upgrades - Some upgrades, such as the hicap dr on my sn2, I borrowed from my dealer for a couple of weeks and just followed stage 2.

Point on Dayjay !

Stage 2, is the key!

Going to the dealer, and A -B test for a couple of hours, Hogwash!

Blindfold the dealer, and A-B 282 vs 252

And check the statistical data ! 

Just my thoughts!

Allante93!

Repeat, that's what we do, with this expensive hobby of ours.

Spend thousands of dollars for subtle differences that can't be detected by the Norm, but Remember, we aren't the Norm!

2007 CES debuts CD555

CD555/282/Snaxo/3 x 250/DBLs

Allante93!

The best demos I have had were a mix:

* Speakers at my dealer, with my own components - that is easy as I live 1 km from my dealer. It was easier for him to line up all the speakers in his demo room.

* Long-term component demos at home: use it for 2-3 weeks and see if I miss it when it's gone (that's how NDS was tested)

These days, I might have a quick listen at my dealers, but I really don't learn much by doing this. I'm very fortunate here, because my dealers are happy to lend me kit for at least a week or so to evaluate in my own system. I wouldn't contemplate buying something without home demo.

tonym posted:

These days, I might have a quick listen at my dealers, but I really don't learn much by doing this. I'm very fortunate here, because my dealers are happy to lend me kit for at least a week or so to evaluate in my own system. I wouldn't contemplate buying something without home demo.

Have you been fortunate enough to demo Chord Music IC, on your Chord QBD HDSD?

Allante93!

Their are some very good on-line dealers. I deal with one that is very happy to send items for home demo, they just take your card details,  just in case you don't send the item back . 

Normally they contact you after a week or two and see if you like what your demoing , and because of the lower overheads they are happy to part exchange at a fair price, as yet all Naim items have stayed 

wenger2015 posted:

Their are some very good on-line dealers. I deal with one that is very happy to send items for home demo, they just take your card details,  just in case you don't send the item back . 

Normally they contact you after a week or two and see if you like what your demoing , and because of the lower overheads they are happy to part exchange at a fair price, as yet all Naim items have stayed 

That's interesting: I'll have to hunt around more. I thought I was doing well, but they take the money immediately, not just the CC details, and so two items have had to be split over multiple cards to get round CC limits. And they limit to 14 days from receipt (though that seems reasonable), with onus on me to send back in time.

One thing not addressed specifically by anyone so far is secondhand equipment - I don't know if dealers' policies are different if they stock s/h stuff, but buying privately often limits to hearing in the seller's own system, if at all - and remote purchase inevitably limits to not hearing other than verifying in working order. That said, however, the trek I mentioned in my earlier post did include a private seller - and yes, did include lugging my huge IMFs into his house for comparison. (At the end of my trip I made him happy by buying his!)

meanwhile I like the thought others have presented of playing for a while then removing, so I shall try that for myself shortly. A-B is great even quite subtle differences provided sufficient alternations are made and with sufficient listening each time, but changes can be tedious if having to switch off, change connections, power up, reset settings - and it is vital to standardise volume (which I do after changeover, using a simple phone app to give an objective measure).

I listen at dealer. Then listen at home if the dealer demo is promising. If it's something I believe will be promising in the first instance I will go straight to home demo - the dealer is pretty intuitive in this area and will recommend either coming into the shop or going straight to home dem.  In many (not all) cases I will then listen to the current system for a few days after the new candidate has gone back.

For me it's about the music. Fine detail, resolution, extension and all that HiFi stuff  will either emerge or they won't. No straining of ears is necessary to make a decision. If the musical portrayal is better presented/more appealing it's then just a question of cost versus value. These endpoints are different for all situations and everyone. 

I have found the most crucial differentiator tends to be reverting back to existing system after trying something new in it. Over the years I have passed on far more components than I have purchased although that ratio is starting to approach 50/50. I expect this is because Helen and I are very happy with what we have, don't seek or crave more, and what little upgrades we make are carefully considered, only chosen after lengthy rumination and cogitation, and auditioned the hell out of.

A big part of this is having access to a good dealer. Relationships and trust build. We pop into ours whenever we are in Bath and have time to spare. We just talk. And we find out interesting things. We meet other owners. It's like cars. If I couldn't get to a decent dealer for sales related things or a good indie  for everything else, I would drive another make.  With Naim it's easy for the most part if you live in England.

S/H. I always get a good deal when I trade in. So I expect the dealer sells on at less than bargain prices.  They have the facility for lengthy audition (possibly less so home audition - I don't know) so you would reasonably expect to pay more.  I know that when my stuff gets sold on the dealer fusses and obcesses over giving good gear and service to the next owner. This should be taken into consideration.

The last thing I sold privately was a Class A amp. I set it up in my system and the prospective buyer drove down from London. We spent a couple of hours in the lounge listening and talking about his music.  We both enjoyed ourselves and he bought it. Previous to that I took the amp 15 miles up the road to a PFM member in Bath. We sat, chatted, listened to his system and he kept it for a week. No sale. I collected. I wouldn't have used distance payment and couriers. You get what you pay for as a buyer and a seller.

Second hand buying is a little more difficult for me as neither of my two dealers sell used equipment and I won't audition from a dealer unless I intend buying from them if I like the item.  I have bought second hand through ebay in the past but am less and less likely to do so.  I have also bought used/demo from dealers and that is where I am more likely to buy in future as I have at least some cover should things go wrong.  I only buy second hand or ex dem for components that are 'nice' to have and that I can move on easily if I am not happy with them - if I really need it then it is pretty likely I will seek to buy new.

HH - I like your "cost versus value" - that says it all ... means different things to different people and probably colours judgements accordingly.

thinking about this further, it appears to me to come back to my first post here a few weeks ago on "I don't know what I don't know" ... this in respect of what music we actually take to demo with.

Obviously taking music we enjoy and are somewhat familiar with lets us hear if there is something "better" in the presentation; but is this always unexpected and is it actually better or just different?

The other, and probably more rare approach, would be to identify what you don't like with the current system and choose a track (or probably just one small part of a track) that illustrates this ... but then we come back to my post - I don't know what can be done better and don't know what is not so good with my system.

... I know what you're going to say ... just stick with what you have then!

... but the ears and wallet are itching - there might be better than this out there!

So do you take just a sample of music or music to check out specific sound presentation?

Allan

Harry Posted

A big part of this is having access to a good dealer. 

I can only reinforce the point made by Harry. Earlier this year I started using the same dealer in Bath and on my first visit I immediately felt at home after discussing my requirements on this and subsequent visits spending some considerable time mulling over the various options on upgrading-changing my Olive system.

Taking on board the advice given a demo was arranged and during this the dealer was clearly able to demonstrate the sonic advantages of adding powers supplies. changing pre amps and cables excellent advice was also given on accessories like Power Lines etc,

A good trade in price was offered for my old system so the new Naim boxes were duly ordered leaving the speakers till after a home audition to ensure they worked as well in my room as they did at the dealers.

The dealer made a superb job of installing the system including setting up my NAS drive with dpoweramp ripping in WAV format upgrading the software on my original NDX etc nothing was to much trouble.

The Customer service given from the initial meeting to installation has been exceptional highly recommended.

I have to agree with PCD's comments regarding establishing a good relationship with a dealer.

I've been using mine for several years now, even though he is by no means the dealer closest to me.

Other than SL and Chord cables, which were posted to me for an extended home trial, every black box upgrade has been installed here by him.

His philosophy on trade ins seems to be that he has already made a decent profit on the original, so can afford to be somewhat creative on pricing the replacement.

I did start out on the Naim adventure via entry level kit from eBay, but once convinced, have used my regular dealer ever since.

It does pay in the long run.  

I'm confused - I don't think it was me who mentioned cost versus value, although it sounds an interesting conundrum. 

Interesting thread - I can relate to most of these issues, and clearly building a relationship with one dealer and home demo seems to be the key. I agree, leaving the new item inthe system then taking it out gives me the best idea of whether I really want to change something. But I haven't seen any responses on what I find to be the hardest area i.e. demos of tone arms and cartridges especially as Naim don't make them, and home demos of cartidges have in my expereince made dealers pretty cautious (can't say I blame them).  So you are looking for dealers that also stock and can demo the items you are interested in (in my case SME, probably Dynavector). It would be interesting to hear of experiences in this area as well (as long as 'm not hijacking/widening the original question too much).