New Kleos SL on my Verdier

My old friend Tom Rothermel from Vinyl Valet in Tempe AZ came out to visit this weekend and setup my Verdier with a new Kleos SL.    He also tweaked the system with Herbie's Audio Lab Grungebuster material and Tenderfoot footers, a Way Excellent II turntable mat, and Giant Fat Sliders under my speakers.   Now the system sings like never before and the Herbie's products keep the feedback on the Fraim to a minimum.  The Verdier had been sitting on Walker Audio Valid Point footers but that setup would ring with the Fraim.   The Tenderfoot footers are just the ticket.    The Verdier has always been the King of PRAT, and now it is even better.

Now you can hear every nuance, say, of The Band album which sparkles like never before.   It sounds muddy and muffled on many systems.   

I highly recommend the Kleos SL as the perfect partner to the Superline-Supercap.   It requires 64DB of gain which is exactly what the Superline provides.    

The cartridge only has about 3 hours on it so far.  I am sure it will sound even more spectacular when it is broken in.

One think I have noted with the SL is that the output is super loud at 9 o'clock or higher.   It is possible to adjust the gain on the SL or the 552 to allow me to turn the volume up higher to 11 or 12 o'clock?     I am using only the first 25% of the volume control.

Skip, you cannot easily adjust gain.  I think the only option is to have your Superline modified by Naim to an E version which is slightly lower gain.  The standard Superline is for carts with an output of 0.1mV to 0.5mV, the E version for carts from 0.4mV to 0.7mV.  

At 0.25mV, I would have thought that your Kleos SL would be ideal for the standard Superline.  If it's super loud at 9 o'clock you might want to just double check that you haven't got a standard Kleos (0.5mV) by mistake...?

The box says Kleos SL.   I don't think Lyra marks the cartridges with SL.  I will check with them.

The Verdier with Superline and Supercap with the Kleos totally outclasses the CD555 with 2 PS.   They both get loud faster than I like but the Herbie Tenderfoot solves the feedback issue.   This is a high class problem I know.  

Question for you, Richard, if you please.

With a 0.25mV Kleos SL cartridge output into the Superline, should I expect the phono be about the same volume as my CD555 player for a given 9 o'clock level?  Would a 0.5mV output (plain Kleos) be substantially louder than the CD player?   Please,  if you can,  get back to me with that answer and we'll go from there.

This is my first case if Audiophilia Nervosa in many years.  Thanks for the relief.

<BTW, I can't make the picture post work using my Flickr account.  I do have some great pics if I can figure it out>

Skip, I'm afraid that without a Kleos or Kleos SL to hand it's impossible for me to say for sure here. And even then I don't have a normal Superline to hand, mine is the lower gain E version.  Maybe someone else with a regular Superline and similar output cart who's following this thread can try for you?  What was your cart before you got the Kleos?

Standard Helikon.  Got 15 years out of it.  On the way back to Lyra for a rebuild.  It did seem to be fairly equal to the CD555 in volume.  I just need to do that meticulously with the Kleos SL.

As usual, I ask myself, "What would Kuma do?"

The standard Helikon specs at 0.5mV at 5cm/sec, the same as the standard Kleos.

Is it fair to say with half the output you would have to turn the volume  twice as far?

No, it doesn't work quite like that.  However, all else being the same, you should definitely have a bit more useable range on the volume knob compared to your old Helikon

Hi Skip

I have a Helikon SL into Superline and my CD555 is much loader at same position on volume control.

I too am wondering if you have the standard Kleos.

Regards

Hutch

Skip posted:

The box says Kleos SL.   I don't think Lyra marks the cartridges with SL.  I will check with them.

Skip,

If you flip the cartridge, SL version has KLS prefix.

I suspect that Kleo's actual output voltage is a bit higher than stated .25mv. Maybe in .3 ish.

That said, with loudspeaker with a sensitivity at 86db or so, 9 Oclock position on a 552 is sufficiently loud but not obnoxious ( that's 10 O'clock ). It is rare that I go passed 9 O'clock. With a 90db speakers, the volume is usually parked before 9 O'clock. It is pretty loud at 9 O'clock.

Personally I would not worry about where the volume knob is so long as the cartridge makes music. I think that some folks believe that a volume knob needs to be high to get dynamics but I have not had a problem with a 552.

I suppose you could modify your standard Superline to E, but I prefer a standard version.

I can't remember where I parked the volume with a CD555. I can check tomorrow.

With a Linn Kandid ( over 0.5mv output ), I did have to turn down the volume slightly lower than Kleos. I think only time I used 9 O'clock position was with Miyabi 47 and Ortofon A95.( 0.2mV )

Thanks Kuma.  My Kleos definitely has the KSL serial number on the bottom of the case, as shown in your photo!   Case closed.  Thanks for the help.

Sounds great.

https://flic.kr/p/LUS2dY

Don't know why I can't get this picture post icon to work but see the link above please

My Dynavector XV-1S has 0.3mV output. It's been 3 months since I heard my system last but my memory says it's around about the same output as a Naim CD player when using a standard Superline driven by the preamp. I don't think the Superline's output changes when driven by a supercap, but it's been years since I heard one driven that way.

Your link gives a Page Not Found error...

Frank.

Frank,

Try cut and paste the entire link skip posted above. It showed up for me.

Skip,

Nice knife collection.

The new link works...

Frank.

Nice of you to notice, Kuma.   Most of those knives are not mine.  I got the Flickr to post the knives for a talented friend from Indiana.   But it won't work over here the way I am doing it.

Trouble in Paradise!

I am beginning to see an issue with my new phono setup.    I do not believe this issue has ever happened before the new cartridge.   I get some noise in the right channel, a pop or a screech and it goes dead.  I swap the phono leads from the tonearm and the right channel is still out.   That tells me it must be in the Superline phono or further downstream.   When I unplug the Superline stage and wait 30 minutes the stereo sound comes back.   I think that tells me it is in the Superline.   I will unplug and replug the inputs, outputs, settings plugs, and power and listen further tomorrow.   Has anybody ever seen this as an issue?

Skip,

It does sound like something is faulty with your Superline.

Do you have another phono stage to try out just to see if the same problem persists?

Could it be a broken cartridge tag?

Have you tried powering a Superline from a 552 ?

I've a first generation Superline and it has never been a problem.  The only time I've lost channel was due to knackered ARO's cartridge tags from my cartridge swapping. But I don't think that's your problem since this does not produce 'a pop or screech '.

Is your Superline new? The descriptions of the symptom resembles a bad cap in a preamp.

Trouble shooting a vinyl set up is a royal PITA as so many thing *could* go wrong. :/

Have you spoken to your dealer about this? If so, what does he have to say about it?

You turn off the Supercap and turn it back on 30 minutes later and all is right.  It was suggested that I reverse the cartridge leads to rule out the cartridge but it is a new, expensive and expertly set up cartridge so I don't want to go there.  I was told to reseat the ground and reseat the RCA plugs and be sure they go all the way to the collar on the chassis, and not to worry about the sprung suspension, plug and unplug everything etc.   I may send the Superline in for a look when I get an RMA and a date that they will look at it.   It sounds great tonight but I just turned it on.

Looking around on the Forum I found this thread below.   Nobody volunteered this information, so thanks to the Forum.     I believe I have an old SL chassis (S/N 261*** places it in 2008) with a new board as of three years ago, so I would  hope to be past this issue and the succession of replacements discussed in the nightmare scenario below.   It has been trouble free and singing beautifully since I have had it, until this week.

Here's the thread:

https://forums.naimaudio.com/to...uperline-in-3-months

https://forums.naimaudio.com/to...perline-dead-channel

If my unit has such a known issue, I would hope it would be covered by some recall or related help from the factory.  But it might just be a quick time and materials fix.

BTW, West Side Story ( new on Analog Spark.  Analog Planet rates it 11/11!) sounds wonderful on this set-up.

Skip,

I am surprise to read that there was a problem with early production Superline as mine has been flawless ever since. ( the first generation CD555, OTOH, was frustrating experience and the malaise has been reported here many times )

Are you, for sure,  your Supercap is ok?

Do you know why you have a 2008 vintage Superline with 2013 board? ( too early for recap ) Which raise the question: Who swapped the board?

Speaking of Analogue Spark, I was interested in purchasing the remastered 'American in Paris' to compare with my Speakers Corner reissue.

AV Options did it.  Post NAINA.  Pre the new Canadian guys.  Got it from my main dealer and it has been trouble free.  It has been trouble free all evening too, since I got the "plug in tighter" guidance on the RCA and Ground plugs.   I have no idea how to test my Supercap and my dealer is 800 mi. away.  I bought it new the same time as the reconditioned Superline.  It would be under warranty I am sure.

On the volume question, I have confirmed that I have a Kleos SL based on the S/N, and it sounds almost as loud as the CD555.   You can tell the difference by AB, but it is not much on the knob.   Not much at all.  

I thought the Kleos-Verdier-Superline combo would slay the CD555 but on the few mainstream recordings where I have both CD and LP, that I have tried,  it has not.  That is a credit both to the CD555 and to the Herbie Giant Sliders which allow the enhanced bass of the Verdier to be cleaner without feeding back into the Fraim.   These Herbie's products are surprising to me.  I never would have identified them as something to add, but they are useful on a suspended floor because they damp vibration, much as the opposite of spikes.  Imagine moulded SuperBall material into specific shapes for specific applications.    Tom Rothermel, erstwhile Naim and Lyra dealer from Vinyl Valet, recommended them and he has usually been right. 

My sense is that on Sheffield Steel, for example, both sound appropriately digital.  And the bass on the LP is every bit the equal of the CD.   I think the LP wins on the highs, but my wife could not hear enough difference to care about it.   On the new Westside Story, the new Ellington Masterpieces, both rated 11-11 by Fremer's AP column, I have to think the LP would win by a mile.

Fingers crossed the SL is over its jitters.  

Thanks for the help, Kuma.   It is always a treat to hear from you on the forums.   If you ever get over this way, we can add some new horizons to your what have you been drinking thread.   Einstok is here!  On me.

Skip,

It is highly unlikely your Supercap is faulty if it was purchased new. I just thought that you could power your Superline directly from 552, taking out a Supercap from the signal chain to see if the problem still persists.

I keep forgetting you are using RCA inputs of the Superline. So you think the problem is a connection issue with the arm leads and a ground wire?

Can your tone arm wires be terminated with BNC? It is so much quieter than RCAs.

Comparing the volume between a CD and LP is very difficult as the software could been mastered at a different volume I'd reckon there's always a slight difference between them. These days I rarely do AB between CD and LP cuz 9 out of 10 I know CD would lose.

When I am feeling slightly pedantic, I have the MM 33 vs 45 LP bake off. ( Part II coming real soon! )

Thanks for a bottle of Einstok. I'll take a rain check!