Naim App Streamer Not Responding

Is it connected via LAN or WiFi?

Can you please describe the sequence of connections in your network? Is there a network switch and a NAS?

This is nothing to do with the app, it's a network problem. Hopefully, once you've described the setup as Adam has suggested, someone can work it out. I'm amazed you've put up with this for two years, I'd have been on the case with my dealer in two days, if not two hours. You must be very tolerant indeed. 

Thanks for the prompt responses.

There is no network switch (other than the internal switch of the BT Smart Hub). There is no NAS. My network has a PC/MAC/SkyBox, Smart TV/ Smart Phones/ Ipad/Printer .. the usual stuff.

I connect wireless though I have tried ethernet for the Naim - no difference.

Hmm. It's very odd that it's happened with three routers. If I were you I'd contact Phil Harris at Naim. He's great at sorting these things out. As you know, it should just work. It may be that as it's a consistent problem that it's the UnitiLite that's at fault. Get on the blower tomorrow. 

Thanks HungryHalibut. 

I have emailed the support line on Friday so I hope my mail reaches Phil.

I've just found that the app has a 'Stay Connected' setting. I think this is new as I have been through the app settings before.  Anyway, I'll give it a go.

I had the same problem.  It was solved by setting <IGMP snooping> to disabled in the router.  A network switch also helps.

Have you updated the UL to the latest firmware?

Hello Huge.

I don't think it is possible to disable IGMP on BT routers. I don't understand the need for a switch solely for the Naim - and I have, in the past, tried the Nairn over ethernet into the router.

The firmware is up to date.

KeithCass posted:

I've just found that the app has a 'Stay Connected' setting. I think this is new as I have been through the app settings before.  Anyway, I'll give it a go.

You may find that adding a switch to your network helps, and Huge's suggestion about IGMP snooping is worth investigating, but I don't think switching on the 'stay connected' button is going to do anything. It certainly never changed anything for me when I had network issues a couple of years ago.

After you've made any changes to your LAN, try a full power down of all devices, then turn them back on one at a time, router first.

KeithCass posted:

Hello Huge.

I don't think it is possible to disable IGMP on BT routers. I don't understand the need for a switch solely for the Naim - and I have, in the past, tried the Nairn over ethernet into the router.

The firmware is up to date.

 

 

Keith, yes you don't want to disable IGMP even if you could... but IGMP snooping is something quite different, but again you might not be able to turn that off either..

i must admit I thought the HH5 was working well with Naim.. apparently not in your case.

My advice to you if you can't  disable IGMP snooping  on the HH5 is connect the devices (streamer, NAS and HH5) to a simple basic switch like a little Netgear that does not support IGMP snooping..... Also get a cheap little Apple Airport Express to use as the Naim app wifi access point and also connect to the Netgear switch. Make sure the Apple Airport Express wifi SSID is seperate from your HH5 wifi and set in bridge mode. Powerup and connect your Naim app to the Airport Express wifi and you should find your iOS Naim app discovers the devices reliably and quickly.

Almost certainly your issue is caused by IGMP compatibility issues and the snooping on the HH5 switch ports is consequently filtering multicast discovery incorrectly..i.e. Devices appear to be undiscoverable on the network. The work around I suggest effectively  bypasses snooping by using a cheap basic switch, and for this UPnP discovery application the consequences of increased inefficiency by bypassing are trivial...but your devices should appear again.

Good luck

Simon

It's correct that BT HH's cannot disable IGMP so if that is causing the issue it needs to be worked around,  if the problem IGMP related, then the switch will overcome some offending aspects of Multicast network discovery as per S-i-S post above.  

Additionally the BT HH5 is a pretty good hub as far as ISP units go,  I have one & it works extremely well.  But I'm not convinced about its switch functionality,  whilst it might be OK for home applications & light traffic,  can it receive & transmit simultaneously,  there is no way to really tell about that & therefore I question how good it is on high def/density continuous streaming as we have with audio.   A switch is designed for the purpose, & IMO a basic requirement for audio streaming.  Then it all needs a rock solid reliable connection & that can only be done with ethernet - all the way.

Yes guys, do not disable IGMP.. it is IGMP snooping you want to try and disable if you can if multicast discovery appears not to work reliably .. IGMP and IGMP-snooping are completely different functions. IGMP is for routers, IGMP-snooping is for switch ports and may appear as a setting on routers with LAN switch ports.

Technical issues aside - why does the OP use a quality streamer if no NAS or other music storage is being used? Made me wonder a bit....

...........  same thought crossed my mind Adam, but it seems a lot of cmpys & peeps think music from a PC is OK,  I've tried it & no thanks.  But maybe better to fix the OP issue first.

Thanks all for the advice. Due to location of my BT Smart Hub (it is not a HH5) I am unable to connect a switch via Ethernet to the Smart Hub - which sounds like a bit of an issue if the IGMP Snooping is the cause of my problems.  Though I suppose I could physically relocate the UnitiLite for test purposes.... may be I'll try that.

Another thought maybe to use PowerLine extenders - some have a small 1 or 2 port switch built in, and could provide a separate SSID for the App as per Simon's comment.

As to the 'why use a quality streamer if no NAS is being used...'. I am a 63 year old ex broadcast TV techie who has to admit that his hearing these days is not quite what it used to be! I enjoy using TIDAL  as it provides access to a very broad range of music at an affordable price and at Hi-Fi quality. 

I am not a network guru by any stretch of the imagination so I really do appreciate the advice given by all on this topic. Many thanks. But I am left wondering why the design of the app is so susceptible  to network issues like IGMP Snooping - cannot this be worked around somehow?  I would imagine that the points/workarounds raised in this discussion will be beyond many who like to enjoy quality products but have no technical ability at all.

Keith

KeithCass posted:

 Though I suppose I could physically relocate the UnitiLite for test purposes.... may be I'll try that.

 

You mentioned in an earlier post that you'd already tried an Ethernet connection, so haven't you already covered that?

Either way, I would suggest not using the built-in WiFi on your Uniti. If you really can't run a wired connection to the streamer, connect it to an Airport Express or similar, which should do a better job.

KeithCass posted:

Thanks all for the advice. Due to location of my BT Smart Hub (it is not a HH5) I am unable to connect a switch via Ethernet to the Smart Hub - which sounds like a bit of an issue if the IGMP Snooping is the cause of my problems.  Though I suppose I could physically relocate the UnitiLite for test purposes.... may be I'll try that.

Another thought maybe to use PowerLine extenders - some have a small 1 or 2 port switch built in, and could provide a separate SSID for the App as per Simon's comment.

As to the 'why use a quality streamer if no NAS is being used...'. I am a 63 year old ex broadcast TV techie who has to admit that his hearing these days is not quite what it used to be! I enjoy using TIDAL  as it provides access to a very broad range of music at an affordable price and at Hi-Fi quality. 

I am not a network guru by any stretch of the imagination so I really do appreciate the advice given by all on this topic. Many thanks. But I am left wondering why the design of the app is so susceptible  to network issues like IGMP Snooping - cannot this be worked around somehow?  I would imagine that the points/workarounds raised in this discussion will be beyond many who like to enjoy quality products but have no technical ability at all.

Keith

 

Keith,

The problem with IGMP snooping isn't a Naim issue, it's that the algorithms used in some routers make incorrect assumptions and don't work well.  Some other manufacturers appear to have got around the problem, but the only way to do this is to use non-standard communications protocols for discovery.  In my opinion, that poses an even more insidious risk as that can cause failures in ways that are even more difficult to track down and (rarely) in other devices on a network.  As a broadcast techie, I'm sure you appreciate the importance of keeping to standards as a long term thing, rather than just making it up as you go along.

I would advise against Power Line Adapters as they put heavy HF modulation (AV200 is 2-28MHz) onto the mains wiring and audio equipment is inherently susceptible to RFI.  There are also potential health concerns with the level of the EM emissions from these devices, and these concerns are still being investigated.

If you really can't use a wired Ethernet connection, then the option that seems to work best for people is to use a pair of Apple Airport Extremes to provide the link from the streamer to the network.  Some people have had success using their ISP's wireless connection and just using one Airport device linked to the steamer by a cable; however this solution is dependant on the quality of the ISP's supplied wireless router, so is less predictable.

The other advantage of using a separate switch is that it separates the (time critical) audio traffic from all other traffic on your network.  Whilst your ISP supplied router should do this in theory, in many cases their actual latency (and throughput) performance is more limited than a dedicated switch and you can get collisions on their backplanes, making them less efficient at the job.

Huge touched upon a really important topic here.

There are numerous router manufacturers on the market and many devices available. Forum members (including me) have reported good and stable connections to Naim streamers using Apple routers - Airport Extreme and Airport Express.  They have been designed to work well in a domestic environment with a minimum set up required.

Cheers Huge.

I appreciate the teach in, thanks!  

I have, in the past, used my network to control a Synology DS3 NAS which I no longer use (and hence no previous mention in these posts until now..).

When using Synology I never experienced any trouble in streaming over my network to the Naim with the various BT Routers I have used (and an old netgear), plus  I never had any problems with the GUI interface to the Synology over my phone or I Pad.  Hence my simplistic assumption that Naim's app should work equally well and without interruption.

I'm not an Apple fan particularly - hence my recent change from iPhone to Samsung (the latter has, fortunately, not exploded yet ).  I used an old Airport Express with my iPhone and had real discovery problems with Airplay, Interestingly never with Apple TV though. My son had similar discovery issues with a more recent (2016) purchase of an Airport Express  (not in the same location as me). He's also gone Samsung now.

A few have mentioned the Airport Extreme, and as you say I would need 2 as they only bridge to each other, but you will appreciate this would be a costly fix and I would need to be 100% certain it would work before making such an investment. Goodness, £300 to make the Naim App work - where does it say this in the blurb.

I hope Naim support will get back to me today and will be as helpful and thorough as everyone who has contributed on this thread to date.

IMO I still feel that this should work better than it is and without the need for Apple in the way. At least the Samsung has APTX - maybe a £40 Neet is the answer. Unbelievable!

Keith

Keith,

I agree £300 is a very expensive way to replace a £5 Cat5e network cable (and you can drill holes in walls for less than that!).

The Apple Airport units aren't specifically necessary for Naim streamers, but a reasonably recent, properly designed and properly configured 'router' is; it needs to have full support for the DLNA 1.5 standard (including the underlying parts of the UPnP specifications that it uses).

The fact that you've previously had discovery issues via Airplay also strongly hints at issues in your router configuration or in other parts of the network.

The thing is Keith - I don't think Naim support will be able to help much.
From the symptoms you've described the culprit is hiding somewhere in your home network.

I do agree it's frustrating, and that adding Apple routers is not necessary. In a well implemented home network Naim streamers work in a really plug and play fashion though.

Frustrating it is. Though I do feel that Naim have to be involved in this.  I can see their reluctance but had they published guidelines that said you may have almighty hassle getting our app to work reliably over wi-fi I might not have considered their product. Naim opted to provide wifi on their streamer .......

Going back to the start of all this - the streamer, in terms of playing music from Tidal,  or when I was using my NAS  a while ago,  always behaves fine. It's the App <> Streamer connection that is unreliable. I have every bit of kit powered down in my house apart from the streamer and Smart Hub.  I have forgotten/removed every product that connects to my Smart Hub and still I get random streamer not responding messages (though the music continues to play fine).

All that is left is the wireless connection between the Smart Hub and the Naim and the control of the Naim with my  smart phone.  It should just work, shouldn't it?

Keith

It could still be an incompatible or incorrect configuration in your router.

All I can say is that when you get the network setup right, then it really does "just work".

Should work . . . could work . . . Keith you are getting solid advice here as to what you can do to make it work.  You can take the position that you should not have to do these things, and that Naim support should help you with your network issues . . . but in the end it'll be you frustrated and a networked system that is not functioning up to par.

As Huge says, it really does "just work" when you get it set up right.  And there is no magic to it.  Touch wood, but I have had ZERO app/streamer/network connectivity issues in going on 2 years now.  My network is very simple.  My ISP's router happens to be fine.  I use Apple Airport Extreme for wifi.  I have a Netgear 16 port unmanaged switch.  My server and streamers and nas are all connected to the switch by plain ole cat-5 cable.  It works.  

Thanks again everyone for this discussion and the points raised. I am so grateful for the time you have taken to share your experiences and knowledge to give me guidance on how to proceed from here.

I also heard back from Phil at Naim and the consistent advice about ethernet and switched connections.

So - its upheaval time at the Keith household in order to get some £5 ethernet cable from router - switch - Naim. Frankly, I may have to redecorate the whole place.  Well it will keep Mrs. K happy!

I cannot promise a quick 'it worked' as there is much destruction required but I am sure it will be fine.

Cheers everyone.