Impressed.

Nice post. It would be more useful if the dealer had an NAP 250 DR to compare with the NAP 300 DR. Though I suspect the differences between the two amplifiers would be quite appreciable considering the size of the speakers and the presumably large room (since there are several listeners in the room).

Good to hear the NAC 282 and Hicap DR are up to the task when matched with the NAP 300 DR.

ryder. posted:

Nice post. It would be more useful if .....

For whom?

C.

I haven't heard the 300DR with a 282/HCDR but did enjoy for a while a 300DR with 282/SCDR.  I also felt the 300DR to be a big step up over a 250.2 and the 250DR.

PS I like the new avatar, Massimo

Ryder,

the dealer had had a NAP250.2 until a couple of days earlier, and I have heard the 282/HCDR and that 250.2 with a large selection of loudspeakers over the years, with a selection of speaker cables. The room is not actually very large and last Saturday there were about three people at a time. Let's say 18/20 sq. mt, professionally treated for proper audio store acoustics and with furniture, curtains and a large sofa.

Although I acknowledge having written rather better than a 250, my post was not meant as a comparison between the two amps, but just to say (rather uselessly I admit, since posts on the NAP300 are infinite) how great (not good) an amp it has sounded to my ears. And it (sadly) confirms my conviction that with Naim, the more you spend, the more you get (which of course is not at all the case with HiFi in general).

MDS

Thanks, it was done here:

on a winter afternoon. Province of Savona, Liguria.

M

Thanks Massimo. It appears that the NAP 300 DR has left a very good impression on you. Judging from your experience, I believe the upgrade in sound quality from the NAP 250 DR would be quite significant. At £6,995 the NAP 300 DR can get you two(2) NAP 250 DR with some change, hence the potential gains would be expected. And yes, I agree that the more you spend the more you get, especially with Naim.

Hi Ryder,

we open a dangerous door here, but I think everything is down to what we mean with significant about sound quality.

I am now going to visit my dealer again, having a piece of the afternoon for myself; so I'll ask him to play the system for me once more, and I also hope to be able to have S-400s instead of the (excellent) Cantons. For what it's worth, I'll add a few more impressions of the 300DR after a second listening session; but I still retain a certain 'aural' impression of it, comparable to some 'retinal' one; which only happens with gear that really strikes me.

Regards

Max

BTW,

I don't have an idea of what the 'purchasing power' of an average Englishman is, but the GBP is presently circa EU 1,16 so not extremely far from unity. Well, 6,995 GBPs are today 8,168 EUs; yet, the Italian retail of the NAP 300DR is, today, 12,500 EU, like if it costed, for you, 10,700 GBP. This is just to say that living in the UK, with the same 'purchasing power' I have now, I'd find the NAP 300DR even better, and significantly cheaper..

(So either I am much poorer than I thought, or the current Italian distributor is planning to have an exclusive clientele of Oil businessmen from the middle and far East..)

M.

Massimo Bertola posted:

BTW,

I don't have an idea of what the 'purchasing power' of an average Englishman is, but the GBP is presently circa EU 1,16 so not extremely far from unity. Well, 6,995 GBPs are today 8,168 EUs; yet, the Italian retail of the NAP 300DR is, today, 12,500 EU, like if it costed, for you, 10,700 GBP. This is just to say that living in the UK, with the same 'purchasing power' I have now, I'd find the NAP 300DR even better, and significantly cheaper..

(So either I am much poorer than I thought, or the current Italian distributor is planning to have an exclusive clientele of Oil businessmen from the middle and far East..)

M.

Ouch! That's one hell of a mark-up.

Massimo, agree with your observations. Visited the Bristol show back in February,  the Naim dem compared dr and non dr on 250 and 300, finishing at 500....

Also nac a5 with SL cables..

Using Sopra 2's...

My conclusion was, I would be more then happy at some point to have the300dr set up, absolutely superb in every way. The music was ' truly in the room' ...ended up re-visiting the dem room at least 3 times...as for the 500 series  ect, the dem room didn't allow it to shine, which was a shame, ended up somewhat underwhelmed .

It will be interesting to hear your conclusions when you re- visit your dealer for another listen

Today, when I arrived at my dealer's, one of the guys was demoing a Luxman L590AXII (you'd think that such names only existed in science fiction novels of the '50s), a 30-watt, pure ClassA integrated, in the same system I have heard yesterday. Since it costs EU8,400 (which is likely the retail the NAP300 should have with a sensible GBP to EU change rate, plus some shipping costs), we decided to compare the two: not to establish any hierarchy, but simply to have a further point of reference.

I had taken along some CDs from the car, so I started with Travelogue, a collection of Joni Mitchell songs re-arranged for her own voice and a symphonic orchestra (a perhaps useless project in my view, unless one wishes to hear Joni's aged voice with a more apt accompaniment than her youthful, somehow 'rebel' guitars). The first song's opening is a slow, elusive chord played by strings that sets the key for her mature singing; then she comes in, as if wanting to sing the whole pain of living to us. It's beautiful, and the Luxman seemed aware enough of its responsibility; Joni's former soprano, now a contralto bordering on a sort of gentle, smooth, disenchanted Tom Waits-ness, was there enough, as human as a Japanese amp allows. We listened to the whole of Both sides now, then we changed amp and the system was restored: CDX2-XPSDR-HiLine-NAC282-HCDR-NAP300DR.

It only took me the opening, string orchestra slow chord to realise why I had liked the 300 so much yesterday: I could hear the single sections better, and the sound was of real strings, and the irregular movement of the still D harmony, something like a calm sea oscillating, was more discernible. When the bass entered with a low D, it was much more in control, and more tuneful; even the guy who owns the store, and has never time to stop and smell any roses, just off and on from one room to another, doing his restless selling game, remained with us for a few minutes, unexpectedly silent, then commented: Awful. Meaning beautiful, a word for which he has never the right moment.

They say source first; but I don't remember as significant a change as the one the NAP300DR has brought; it must be the amp for me... I apologise for this unduly lyrical report, but Both sides now always touches something in this aged, sceptical heart.

M 

Massimo Bertola posted:

BTW,

I don't have an idea of what the 'purchasing power' of an average Englishman is, but the GBP is presently circa EU 1,16 so not extremely far from unity. Well, 6,995 GBPs are today 8,168 EUs; yet, the Italian retail of the NAP 300DR is, today, 12,500 EU, like if it costed, for you, 10,700 GBP. This is just to say that living in the UK, with the same 'purchasing power' I have now, I'd find the NAP 300DR even better, and significantly cheaper..

(So either I am much poorer than I thought, or the current Italian distributor is planning to have an exclusive clientele of Oil businessmen from the middle and far East..)

M.

Problem is, the distributor cannot changes their prices every time sterling goes up, or down. And only a couple of months ago, one GDP was about 1.30€ (plus expenses, and all that). Naim equipment was almost cheap at that time (with the dealer's discount). Of course, it's now cheaper to buy from a British dealer again...

Massimo Bertola posted:

...but Both sides now always touches something in this aged, sceptical heart.

M 

Can't comment on a 250 or 300, but Both sides now is a wonderful song, also means a lot to me!

Max -- I'm intrigued by your comment that a highly-revealing system can expose how a recording is merely a recording, rather than a "real" human event. (I wonder if this is related to the "uncanny valley" effect that's been reported when computer-generated images tread too closely to the real thing.) As a dedicated LP listener, I've often thought that I must prefer a prettier version of reality than a digital recording would care to convey. --Joe

Well written, Max. I truly know what it is like to be a hifi shop owner - with never enough 'time to smell the roses'. Competing against other brands locally and the same brands across the globe. Sometimes buying on the internet is like those promises of 'foreign brides', as being better than the local ladies. In the end the way to be happy with our audio is to relax and listen to the music within a small group - often much more spiritual.

Joe,

what I wanted to say is that it has happened to me that on hearing a truly 'musical', revealing system, the awareness that it's a mechanical reproduction suddenly became intense: on my first hearing of the system I have described, for instance, last Saturday, the voice of Frank Sinatra in one of his early, Capitol recordings, clearly conveyed the specific 'voice' of the microphone, which had a resonance, a timbre of its own. On a lesser, but still very good, system, this transparency would have been not so great and, perhaps, the singer's voice would have been more 'natural', because of the lesser degree of audible coloration.

It's very very difficult to have a real impression that the players are present in the room: their image is usually too big or too small, the hall's resonances are not there, and we, quite simply, know that they are not there. A very high degree of 'veracity' in the reproduced sound may conflict with our direct experience of the reality we're in... It's a complex illusion.

That said, the NAP300DR sounded really beautiful to these ears, although I'll have to try it with NAC A5 and S-400s, both available in the store. But I still think that the most unsolvable impasse is that the greater the quality of the gear, the greater the sonic pleasure, but also that a reasonably imperfect system can help the illusion better... By helping us not to forget it's just an illusion.

Best

Max

Bet you won't be disappointed with the s-400 and naca5 with the 300dr. It's exactly what I have here at home. 

Drewy,

I somehow was, unfortunately. When my dealer received this last pair of late S-400s, months ago, and I listened to them in his 'British room' (all Naim/rega/Harbeth gear), I had an immediate impression of a more bright voice than the one I used to know – keep in mind that I had, a few years ago, first borrowed my dealer's fully run-in S-400s for home demo and kept them for two weeks, then bought a brand new pair (and kept them for two weeks); and this last pair did sound different, even new: definitely brighter, livelier. I don't know if they have been re-voiced or what, but the Ovators I listened to yesterday were not like the two pairs I had had at home in 2013.

So it was this late pair of S-400s I connected to the NAP300DR with NAC A5s, substituting for the Canton 1 K speakers and Absolue Création In-Tim speaker cables. The AC cables, by the way, turned out costing €1900 for 2 x 2.5, terminated. Extremely expensive.

In the course of half afternoon we tried the front end (CDX2.2/XPSDR/HiLine/282/HCDR/NAP300DR) with either the S-400s and the NAC A5, the S-400s and the In-Tim cables, the Canton 1 Ks and the Canton 7 Ks (top and bottom of the Reference line), with In-Tim and NAC A5 cables. The result was very simple: a difference between NAC A5 (€35/mt) and the Absolue Creation In-Tims (€400/mt or so) exists, but is not dramatic - it reminded me of when I substituted Vertere Pulse X mini for my own NAC A5: a general, audible but not irrational improvement in smoothness, detail and coherence. But the difference between those Ovator S-400s and both the Cantons was very evident: and all in favour of the Cantons. The Ovators, quite simply, were flatter and became fatiguing in a very few minutes, the Cantons weren't and didn't.

If I must find a flaw in the German speakers – one has to always find a flaw in something he's praising, otherwise the praise sounds useless – I could mention a mild 'meatiness', a vague trace of 'thickness' in the lower mid bass; but the rest was enviable: the cleanness of the upper region, the depth and control of the bass (courtesy of the wonderful 300DR), the listenability without any trace of artificial smoothness, along with a disarming coherence and richness of detail.

Bottom line: NAP300DR and the new reference Canton K series are very compatible. But I suppose this doesn't mean much.

M

Apologies, I was wrong: the bigger Canton I demoed yesterday was the 3 K, not the 1 K. I checked pics and prices, and it obviously couldn't be the 1.

All the rest remains the same..

M

If ther's one to hand swap the hicap for a supercap and hear if the bass cleans up a bit, this worked with Kudos C2.

Yeti, the bass was never a problem, with the S-400s or with the 3 K and 7 K. The problem was in the S-400s' upper range. But my dealer is waiting for a Supercap to be delivered, so I'll have a chance to try it too.

Good job I didn't actually bet you wouldn't be disappointed then

A footnote to my NAP300 impressions. On my second listening sessions of the amp (with Cantons, Ovators and Harbeth M30.1s), I was accompanied by my brother-in-law. Three days later, he found a nice NAP300 (non-DR) for sale and bought it. Last night I was there and we installed it. His system: CDS3/XPS, HiLine, Supernait as preamp, NAP300, TelluriumQ black cables and Harbeth SHL5s.

Absolutely wonderful. The SHL5s have lost all those little things that made me unable to consider them seriously: the bass has gained almost one octave and is tuneful and controlled; the treble is extended and refined, rich in detail and much less 'grained'; the separation between timbres and spacial positions of the instruments was perfect (for a design dating back to an epoch and a culture when stereo imaging was nonsense); even the voice of Joni Mitchell in Blue – sometimes nasal and piercing, perhaps due to remastering – was, well, a perfect voice with an unsuspected – and, so far, unreached – degree of expressivity, of 'human' structure.

Again, they say source first, but what an amp.

M 

Hi Massimo,

I just saw your post. I went from NAP 200 to the NAP 250 DR on the Harbeth SHL5s. Although the 250 DR is not an NAP300, I do share an almost similar experience. The speakers gained a more "human" character, leaving the grain and mechanical sound behind. Organic is the key word. And yes, the treble sounds richer and more extended, and the bass shows more definition and texture.

I can just imagine the massive transformation of your brother-in-law's SHL5s when going from the Supernait to the Supernait/NAP300. The changes I have described above are when I went from the NAC 282 / NAP 200 to the NAC 282 / NAP 250 DR.

I have made a pledge to stay put with my newly-assembled system for good, though the future is always uncertain as they say. I know the NAP 300 / 300 DR is a very good amp. Maybe one day..

Massimo,

    when I first heard a NAP300 replace a 250.2 in a friends system several years ago I posted

"I am a self confessed "Source First" fundamentalist, but hearing the 300 replace a 250.2 in a friend's system forced me to seriously question my devotion to this mantra. "

  and if I had the funds I would own one now. It is one seriously impressive amplifier even without DR,

Paul. 

Indeed..

Max