It's happening: PMC Twenty.23 upgrade to Twenty5.23

Oh no, gutted for you FZ.

When I got mine I thought the boxes seemed not quite as sturdy as I thought/imagined They should be inbetween the foam ends (I was expecting a heavier gauge cardboard) and even mine had taken a few bumps in the middle of the boxes (luckily without damage), maybe this is just a coincidence.

Though I guess it is difficult to ensure against possible rough handling in transit by shippers & couriers / customs idiots.

Hope your replacements get sorted quickly.

A real let down after this wait, when I saw the pictures of the boxes last night I thought I hope the speakers are in better condition than the boxes they looked a bit messy??

So sorry to hear that FZ. Very frustrating and Big sympathy with you. About 15 years ago I had some Shahinian's imported to Japan from Australia and the boxes had been extensively 'given the customs boot' as the Aussie dealer put it. Huge foot size holes half way down both boxes so they could look inside. Fortunately, there was enough space between the cardboard and the speakers that no damage was done, but I remember being pretty amazed and outraged at the time. Sadly, not a lot you can do if customs choose to investigate heavy-handedly  though...

I can't believe your luck FZ. It seems that customs have got it in for you!

Console yourself in the knowledge you will become the proud owner of some lovely, mint, brand new Twenty5.23s. It is just going to take a little longer than planned.

Japanese customs are the worst. About 10 years ago my sister sent stuff from Amazon.com gift wrapped. 

Since Amazon aren't known for selling cocaine or making stuff up on their shipping labels, it was okay right? Wrong. Honest to god, the postman delivered a bin liner filled with the books, opened cartons, torn wrapping paper and opened birthday card just loose in the bag. He was very apologetic but said it came from customs like this.

Oh no. That's not good. I hope you get it sorted out ok. 

James

What a disaster. Hope it's sorted for you soon enough. 

Oh no.. Was it personal import?

Normally this kind "fragile" equipment when it is addressed to distributor/reseller is not pried into by customs. If this not the wrong doing of shippers someone should get back at the people with customs on the face of this notoriety..

Hope you get fresh, untouched or undamaged ones in no time.

Yeah it was a personal import. I bought them in the UK and my dealer ordered a pair and shipped them direct to me unchecked.

After calming down a very close inspection reveals that while the boxes were abused and punctured (big holes on the side not seen) the pucture marks are not even within 40cm of the damage and there has been no retaping or disturbing of the document wallent or factory taping over the top or bottom of the boxes. This kind of indicates that the damage happened at PMC and someone (maybe work experience) also packed the foam sheets in the wrong stacking order so that the spike bolts fall through.

If so this might complicate things since the Twenty5 range is not for sale in Japan so if the damage was at PMC, I would still be on the hook for the carriage back to the UK and from the UK for a new pair. Which would be about GBP700. UPS insurance only covers the whoe shebang if this happened in transit or customs and so far the evidence is swinging strongly in the PMC factory direction.

feeling_zen posted:

@Chrissu, you jinxed it.

They are going back. In both boxes, customs had been too foxtrotting stupid to figure out how the packing foam went back and just chucked the spikes in the box to rattle around. The logos has been torn away from the grilles and the one that was a deal breaker was that the first one I took out, had a massive ding on the front right corner that torn away the vaneer. The ding spot exactly matches the crease in the pic above. Funny thing is that is not the one I unboxed so I can only assume they took them out and swapped boxes.

Both boxes were also punctured. If I had unboxed last night it would have been a tears before bedtime scenario for sure.

I had a pair of QAcoustics 3010 sent also for the office system and while they are mint, the box they came it was so abused that the polystrene ends had somehow been shattered. I don't even know how that happens. It's polystyrene.

Readers of my 250dr vs 300dr post will know that customs and I do not get along well at all. This certainly hasn't helped.

I've let my dealer know but gonna have to wait longer. No idea yet what the turnaround will be.

[@mention:46056317147395691]: funny you mention the Bose cubes. Yes they sound inferior even to a pair of GBP100 speakers but the bose cubes solve a problem in a way no other satellite speaker comes close to. When it comes to getting consisten surround in a really awkward room, scqueezing AV into a really tiny room, or filling a really massive room with a big sound without a big box or price tag, nothing comes close. I've installed these in churches before because they can fill the hall like a PA system. In my case I got these in 2005 when I had absolutely zero space in a dedicated AV room (Japanese homes). And I keep them now because what you cannot see in that picture is the 2.5m high window that starts on the left of the hifi rack and curves 90 degrees round the back of the sofa for 7m, or the kitchen and dining area out of the shot. When it comes to keeping the AV system seperate from the hifi (which I beleive in) wiithout noticably increasing the speaker box count in the room and coping with a swine of a room shape, the bloated cost of Bose suddenly seems like it is worth every penny.

Only joking. I actually started with Bose cubes. I had them for 5 years or more then got more into home theater setups. That has now turned into more stereo 2 channel which has led me to Naim. Sucks about the new speakers. Hopefully everything will work out for you. 

Sorry to hear about the situation, FZ.

Is there a kind of certificate that shows the person who assembled the speakers ar PMC.  ? When I got a pair of GB1s in 2010, it came with this info.

This may be of some help.  Hope you get it resolved.

Jude

Jude2012 posted:

Sorry to hear about the situation, FZ.

Is there a kind of certificate that shows the person who assembled the speakers ar PMC.  ? When I got a pair of GB1s in 2010, it came with this info.

This may be of some help.  Hope you get it resolved.

Jude

 

Yeah they are assembled by the same chap who did my old 23s. But unless that person boxes them too, I suspect logistics dep is to blame. The plastic bag is punctured at the point of damage but the integrity of the carton in that area is undisturbed.

My dealer is on the case and will get it sorted. And I have the go ahead to set them up and use them until replacements can be made and shipped out. 

Not the end of the world. Though my wife went nuts when I said we have to keep the boxes until the new ones arrive. 

Pics tomorrow. A day with a wailing toddler hasn't left me with energy to get them setup tonight. The damage shouldnt be visible in pics.

My bad, just glancing, didn't know there was damage to the Speakers, hope everything gets sorted out!

Like you said, it's not the end of the World.

 Allante93!

Okay no pics. The other one was in 10x worse state than the first one I unboxed and again, none of the dings line up with the box punctures. This all happened at PMC I am sad to say. I've had to contend with:

• Machine threads left from the lathe inside a couple of the holes on the stabilsers that would have buggered the screws had I not diticed first and gently teasesd them back and forth with tweezers until they snapped out to leave a clean threaded hole.
• Dings from the loose spikes on the tops of both speakers
• Large ding on front right corner of one speaker.
• Various dings on all corners of the other speaker and one being 2 inches long.
• The PMC logo having falling off both grilles (easily fixed but c'mon).
• Either the magnets on the speaker or the ones in the grilles are misaligned and both grilles rest 3mm lower than flush with the top of the speaker.
• To add injury to insult, the number of dings all the way around the other speaker made it very diffult to find a safe place to hold it and I cut my finger on one of the sharp splinters of the vaneer.

Will find out more next week. Best I can guess is they entered into the cheese rolling competition and failed to finish due to injury. But being pragmatic, these things happen. One bad experience doesn't constitute a statistical QA problem. Though I am shocked that not one but both speakers had had the mother foxtrot sierra kicked out of them.

Blimey. Assuming you are right and all this occurred at the factory (and by the nature of the faults it sounds like it did), there is something seriously wrong at PMC for all these faults to get through. I realise some of them would have occurred in transit due to the loose spikes, but that too is a packing boo boo.

Once you or your dealer have this out with them, I am sure PMC will be all over it like a rash. A great opportunity for PMC to sort some issues out, it is just a shame it takes a poor customer experience to bring them to light.

I have never owned PMCs but I have seen and heard many of them and the quality has always been exemplary. So I am a little baffled as to how much has gone wrong in this instance. You can forgive the odd boo boo but this is very poor QC indeed. The real problems of course lie in manufacturing and packing and should never have found their way to (the non-existent) QC.

I hope you get it sorted soon.

So speakers set up and running and putting all the damage aside (I will be getting replacements eventually). I Had them connected up and powered on the 250dr and let it warm up for a couple hours. I don't see any point talking about the damage any more. The following is for original Twenty.23 owners so we can understand how things have changed.

Setup

The stabilisers on the 25.23s might not look as nice as the black plinths but they are solid and easier to work with when it comes to leveling them out thanks to the spike nuts. No seperate washers and bolts anymore and no reversable spikes with a rounded hardwood friendly end either. Instead, PMC provide a set of small penny sized spike shoes. Nice touch. Word of warning, the stabilisers are fresh from the machine cutter and as such are fairly sharp. Unlikley you'll hurt yourlsef but I wouldn't want one slipping through the palm of my hand with those edges. I didn't use the supplied shoes since I favor using the dense Krypton shoes with the silicone ring (it is flush to stop lateral movement but provides no cushioning). I actually start of with Linn Skeet (I have a set from way back when I had Keilidhs) since these are coated with something that makes them slide effortless on wood floors without damage and it is easy to guide the spike in without being able to see what your are doing. Once all the listening to find the best position is done, I swap these out for the Kryptons whch don't budge a micron once mass is applied. Here you can see the PMC suplied chips, next to good ol' Skeet and the Kryptons.

left to right: PMC chips, Linn Skeet, Krypton spike shoes

Visual

We've all seen the pictures but the reality is a bit differnt. Battered and damaged speakers aside, the dimensions only differ by a couple centimeters. A couple shorter and one wider than the 20.23s. It seems to give them a very different visual character. They are still elegant but visually sturdier so they don't have that immediate impact the tall and very thin 20.23s do, being a bit more conventionally proportioned as the 25.23s are. Still thin and elegant but 1cm wider makes them look a bit more substantial. I cannot confirm until I get my replacement pair but the quality of the vaneer was incredible. I don't know whether it was luck of the draw or PMC are choosing better samples for the Twenty5 range but I got a beautiful pair in Amarone with a rich pattern that had a light bairly grained section merging to rich red section that centered on an almost black knot in the tree. Just incredibly beautiful and tragic that they are damaged. Absolutely gorgeous. I hope the replacements are as nice.

First listen

With a completely non run-in pair of 25.23s my expectations were not that high yet. The older 20.23s took a fair bit of time and the first weeks weeks needed grilles on to tame them a bit and certainly don't deliver the sound you expect on day one. I can't say what the 25.23s will sound like run in yet but even fresh out of the box, wow!

Starting with The Meters, Cabbage Alley to keep it mellow and easy and these old, but well mastered, recordings came alive with a groove to the baselines that was tangible. It was like the difference from adding the SCDR all over again. Every bass note played with such clarity that they seemed to live in the room more than before and the soundstage was instantly noticeably larger than the 20.23 (which are known for their huge for their huge soundstage already). Like someone told the bass guitarist to take 3 steps forward and jam. Next onto The Smiths, the Very Best of (limited edition Japanese double set) and the focus more onto that lucious and precise holographic soundstage making me feel uncomfortable to be so close to Morrissey. Everywhere I went in the room, I could not escape the fact he was just there. I needed to get back to the groove with The Meters again on Rejuvination. Clearly it wasn't a fluke. The low end was hitting hard but clean and grooving. The 25.23s sound like a larger speaker than the 20.23s but a good margin. No longer does there feel like a tradeoff in bass response for the size of the speaker. Finally I turned to something mastered in the modern era and put on Prince, N.E.W.S. One of his more obsure experimental efforts that is uncharitably derided by critics. But if there is a better instrumental jazz funk fusion jamscape I've yet to hear it. This really let the 25.23s work out with a fantastic dynamic range and diverse set of instruments. It was nothing short of amazing. So far I had mainly heard what they have over the 20.23s in terms of low end response and clarity, and soundstaging. Here they had a stunning realism with upper mids where the same thing happened. Performer grew a foot taller and took another step into the room over the predecessor. This album really made the 25.23s seem not so much big for their size so much as sounding simply like large speaker that is much taller and wider. The 20.23s project things a foot or so beyond their location. The 25.23s seem to stretch this out to about 3 feet beyond their edges.

They present a similar signature to the 20.23s but by no means the same signature. I now think it would not be correct to assume that if 20.23s work in your room than 25.23s automatically would. The low end roll off seems much steeper that the older 23s and this has the effect of going much lower with a serious punch. Something I have mentioned on other posts that I lost when I DRed the 250. It is back and more aggressive than before and much cleaner and detailed too. It turns out the 250.2 might have a bit of a low frequency bump by virtue of the fact it is not as wide range as the 250DR which can be more linear. A side effect of this is that is speakers start to roll off sooner, that added low frequency definition the 250DR delivers can be lost and a perceived bass punch with it. But anyone who feels the 20.23s already provide the limit of how much bass they are comfortable with might want to be careful. The 25.23s can really kick ass in the low end - just remember it is very clear bass and can reveal a lot more of what is in the mix.

I've gone through a few system transitions in my time and heard countless others. The 25.23s, non run-in as they were, still managed to deliver a wow factor that I have not felt since I first heard Klout triamped active Linn Kabers back in the 90s. At the time, I thought that was a revelation in clarity and musical joy. The 25.23s have that kind of magic. When I took a 13 year break from hi fi and suddenly fitted 5 new Naim boxes in a rack with 20.23s, you'd think that would have been a wow moment, and it was, but not like when I heard active Kabers the first time. Whether the 25.23s are just a particular good match in my system or memory has fogged how good things really were 20 years ago I cannot say.

Couple other points:

• The 25.23s do not make the 20.23s sound broken. I could go back to them if I had to and I am sure I would get used to the sound again. In fact, I can imagine scenarios where 20.23s may be preferable if the room is very small (mine isn't) and the 25.23s could be too much speaker where a 20.23 would do nicely. Of course, there are 25.22 and 25.21 available too but unless standmounds are of similar size and dimensions to Briks, I find standmounts don't give the solidity and scale. On the other hand, the 25 range seems to have a fair leap forward in mid range clarity a 20.23 cannot match.
• While the 25.23s do not have any of the obvious deficiencies a brand new pair of 20.23s do, the grilles are still required to tame the top end a bit for now. I fully expect them to improve over the next couple months. WIth the 20.23s, it was enough to want to put of serious listening for a while. With the 25.23s, they have enough charms to groove on day one.
• If they sound this good fresh out of a box compaired to well run in 20.23s, imagine what they will be like in several weeks.

nigelb posted:

Blimey. Assuming you are right and all this occurred at the factory (and by the nature of the faults it sounds like it did), there is something seriously wrong at PMC for all these faults to get through. I realise some of them would have occurred in transit due to the loose spikes, but that too is a packing boo boo.

Once you or your dealer have this out with them, I am sure PMC will be all over it like a rash. A great opportunity for PMC to sort some issues out, it is just a shame it takes a poor customer experience to bring them to light.

I have never owned PMCs but I have seen and heard many of them and the quality has always been exemplary. So I am a little baffled as to how much has gone wrong in this instance. You can forgive the odd boo boo but this is very poor QC indeed. The real problems of course lie in manufacturing and packing and should never have found their way to (the non-existent) QC.

I hope you get it sorted soon.

I take it with a grain of salt. When I worked at SWIFT we used to send these encryption devices (think the same cost as a new 552) to banks all over the world. An internal logistics trial went south when we were testing the local processing and handling in Belgium and the Airway Bill we'd agreed with FedEx to be stopped at the depot (since it was all a test with our own people at every stage watching how shipments were handled) somehow got through and a major Japanese bank consequently received a box with a mossy brik in it (we needed something to approximate the weight of the unit and it was out in the company garden). Working locally in Japan I know nothing of these trials in HQ until said bank called me and said "Err, why have we received a mossy brick?"

Well from your write up you at least know you are onto a winner and you can keep the sub standard pair until the pukka pair arrive. I assume PMC/insurance will cover your costs of the exchange.

The Twenty5 range appear to have moved things on significantly. I am interested in the Twenty5.26 and will certainly be checking them out. I have heard the Twenty.26 a few times and have been impressed. So I am thinking the Twenty5.26 could be pretty special.

Glad to hear you are impressed with your choice and I hope the exchange of speakers runs smoothly. 

Nice write up Feeling Zen, a very good read.

Interesting to hear about your take on the differences old to new.

I don't have the benefit of having heard the previous model, but I'm very happy with my TwentyFive.23s. Hope you get your replacements sorted as soon as possible. 

Super write-up FZ! As an owner of 3 pairs of PMCs I shall be keeping an eye on further musings. Obviously I have nothing to add about your unfortunate experience, other than lightning cannot strike twice! Would I be right in saying the black HDF speaker terminal board is now superceded by a metal one? No PMC dealers round these parts of France...

nigelb posted:

Well from your write up you at least know you are onto a winner and you can keep the sub standard pair until the pukka pair arrive. I assume PMC/insurance will cover your costs of the exchange.

The Twenty5 range appear to have moved things on significantly. I am interested in the Twenty5.26 and will certainly be checking them out. I have heard the Twenty.26 a few times and have been impressed. So I am thinking the Twenty5.26 could be pretty special.

Glad to hear you are impressed with your choice and I hope the exchange of speakers runs smoothly. 

Make sure you listen in a similar size room or a home demo. I actually budgeted for the Twenty5.26 but my dealer talked me down after understanding my room and placement better. Apparently the 26s really only sound right in a very large room and need plenty of air behind them and at least 10 feet of space between them for starters. The 6/7 feet commonly used in most listening areas makes them sound awful apparently. This is all anecdotal info. Given that I have a large room but a small listening area and a sprung floor we agreed the 23s would probably sound the best out of the Twenty5 floorstanders in that scenario.

I have a lot of trust for my dealer because they put in a lot of thought to getting the right stuff for each customer even if that costs them a bit of revenue in the short term.

If my room was not an open plan dining living kitchen, and dedicated for music, I would have accomodated the 26s for sure.

feeling_zen posted:

nigelb posted:

Well from your write up you at least know you are onto a winner and you can keep the sub standard pair until the pukka pair arrive. I assume PMC/insurance will cover your costs of the exchange.

The Twenty5 range appear to have moved things on significantly. I am interested in the Twenty5.26 and will certainly be checking them out. I have heard the Twenty.26 a few times and have been impressed. So I am thinking the Twenty5.26 could be pretty special.

Glad to hear you are impressed with your choice and I hope the exchange of speakers runs smoothly. 

Make sure you listen in a similar size room or a home demo. I actually budgeted for the Twenty5.26 but my dealer talked me down after understanding my room and placement better. Apparently the 26s really only sound right in a very large room and need plenty of air behind them and at least 10 feet of space between them for starters. The 6/7 feet commonly used in most listening areas makes them sound awful apparently. This is all anecdotal info. Given that I have a large room but a small listening area and a sprung floor we agreed the 23s would probably sound the best out of the Twenty5 floorstanders in that scenario.

I have a lot of trust for my dealer because they put in a lot of thought to getting the right stuff for each customer even if that costs them a bit of revenue in the short term.

If my room was not an open plan dining living kitchen, and dedicated for music, I would have accomodated the 26s for sure.

Yes, I have always had a concern in the back of my mind regarding the amount of bass energy the 26s put out. Although UK living rooms are not usually as small as Japenese rooms, my living room cannot be described as capacious.

I just loved what I heard from the 26s I listened to at demos. But I would never buy a PMC speaker without a home demo first. At least we have the luxury of that in the UK.

I have had TL speakers before and know to be wary of overloaded bass. I do thank you for the warning and will heed it.

Please keep us up to date with your journey into Twenty5 territory.

Fantastic write up FZ. Will be interested to hear how things improve with the run in. 

My PMC 20.26's are about 7ft apart and 6 in from a rear wall and sound fantastic FWIW