It's happening: PMC Twenty.23 upgrade to Twenty5.23

IanG posted:

My PMC 20.26's are about 7ft apart and 6 in from a rear wall and sound fantastic FWIW

I think that's fantastic.

I don't have the luxury of a home demo so kind of need to stick more closely to both the guidelines from my dealer and PMC. If I'd lived in the UK for sure I would have said "let's give the 26s a try anyway".

As it turns out, the 25.23s offer a significant kick over the 20.23s where I can confirm that even going to the 24s would have pushed it over the edge in my room. I'm glad I took the advice.

Re: speaker replacements, it looks like a lot of work. Both the dealer and PMC indicate that since the courier delivered creased and pinctured boxes, the issue should be handled by UPS and the insurance company - and since this needs to be handled in my timezone I need to act as the go between with the local insurance agents (plus they don't speak Japanese). I had a concern that this might not be strictly legit since the evidence of the placement of dings and the box completely rule out the carriage abuse as the root cause. But after discussing with my wife who works in supply chain legal compliance for a medical supply company, the stance taken by PMC seems correct. It's not a court of law and the evidence doesn't matter. Once an outer carton has been delivered in a seriously damaged state then the courier is on the hook for the full amount. End of story. No negotiation.

Which is fine but I have to deal with all the paperwork.

Something has been niggling me since your write-up of the damage. It seems very un-PMC-like.

You mention Customs. They wouldnt take a peek by having a kick, but possibly using a Stanley knopife to slit the knole thing lengthwise, or, much more likely, open the box where it naturally opens at one end, and take the contents out. They might take the grille off, and even remove the drivers if they were suspicious. And they'd check the ancillary contents. It would then be very plausible that they might not put all the bits in properly, even put the speakers back in, find they missed something and just drop loose inside the box. Is there any sign that one end might have been opened? (Admittedly academic given the claim process now starting.)

as for the box damage, that does seem very carrier-like.

I hope you indicated the box damage at the time of receipt, or that might make tricky - though if my hypothesis of Customs is correct and subsequent evidence that the boxes may have been opened could then be useful.

Innocent Bystander posted:

Something has been niggling me since your write-up of the damage. It seems very un-PMC-like.

You mention Customs. They wouldnt take a peek by having a kick, but possibly using a Stanley knopife to slit the knole thing lengthwise, or, much more likely, open the box where it naturally opens at one end, and take the contents out. They might take the grille off, and even remove the drivers if they were suspicious. And they'd check the ancillary contents. It would then be very plausible that they might not put all the bits in properly, even put the speakers back in, find they missed something and just drop loose inside the box. Is there any sign that one end might have been opened? (Admittedly academic given the claim process now starting.)

as for the box damage, that does seem very carrier-like.

I hope you indicated the box damage at the time of receipt, or that might make tricky - though if my hypothesis of Customs is correct and subsequent evidence that the boxes may have been opened could then be useful.

yup my first reaction was "Customs. You idiots" because I have had dire problems with them before. But in fact none of the origianl clear tape placed by PMC had been disturbed or slit and the packing labels attached in the UK covered the box openings and were also undisturbed. If they were inspected then they must have xrayed them because every edge and corner seal was intact. It is all academic though.

Unfortunately, the receipt form I got from UPs had not fields for recording the box condition. The only interaction you can do is to sign or not sign. Plus the boxes were put against a wall and the dmaged sides were hidden so I did not known until the next day.

PMC have admitted to at least packing them incorrectly causing the dents in the top from the spikes but they won't own up to the other stuff.

I thought you were not supposed to accept goods from the courier if they arrived in such condition?

G

GraemeH posted:

I thought you were not supposed to accept goods from the courier if they arrived in such condition?

G

You're not wrong.

Though the damaged sides were hidden from view against a wall when presented by UPS. Plus the harsh reality is that if damaged boxes were rejected then hardly anyone would get anything bulky intact.

I think the following story is elsewhere on the forum but at one place I worked, they shipped hardware to banks all over the world. We stuck these 10x10cm shock labels on everything that turned from pink to blue if the box was unduly mistreated and knocked about with instructions that no bank receiving units with a blue shock label should accept the shipment. Problem was that (wait for it) over 99% of all cartons delivered to all 202 of the countries we supplied arrived with blue labels.  So we went through different courriers over a few years, DHL > TNT > UPS > FedEx > Nitsu and few lesser known ones. Absolutely no difference. We even did trial runs with our own staff at varous stages invited on site at courriers sorting and warehouses (the mossy brick story is above in the thread) and basically found that that care labels mean nothing. Boxes are thrown dropped and abused like you can't imagine - they did not even hide the fact from prospective large corporate contract customers. The solution: just use the cheapest courier and stop using shock labels and deal with the 20% of units that arrived DOA on a case by case basis.

I've contacted both UPS and the insurance company and neither told me to go away. But the pile of paperwork with a deadline on it has landed.

I should add that PMC have sort of acknowledged that the packing of the units when sent in lone pairs rather out on pallets to international distributors might not be up to it and when my new pair is shipped they will reinforce the boxes to make them more substantial.

feeling_zen posted:

I should add that PMC have sort of acknowledged that the packing of the units when sent in lone pairs rather out on pallets to international distributors might not be up to it and when my new pair is shipped they will reinforce the boxes to make them more substantial.

A solid wooden flight case might be in order!!

Shame about all the paperwork, but it seems it is getting sorted. And after a stressful day you can at least listen to your new speakers and relax in the knowlwedge you will be getting a perfect pair - eventually.

As your wife says, this it is not a court of law, you have been told how the situation will be handled, so best not to raise further questions and queries, which I am sure you are not.

Several days in and the differences between these and the origial 20.23s is striking. I'm not sure I agree with what I have heard in the press that gives the impression of "the same but better".

It's funny how the perception of how a component sounds changes when something else is presented for comparison. Up until I DRed the 250.2 I never agreed it had a low frequency bump until I went to the 250DR and the bump was instantly and very noticably gone. Likewise with the 20.23s, I never once heard them sounding thin and fragile but would have chosen precise and airy instead as my adjectives. But not on reflection with the 25.23s which sound so much more "grown up" I realise the 20.23s were a little on the thin side. Certainly, the 20.23s are exceptionally clear and the soundstage, if positioned right, can be holographically precise. But maybe the instruments in that soundstage could be described as somewhat ephemeral or translucent compared to the 25.23s where they are solid and opaque.

Suddenly, you have a sense that the sounds are eminating from not just points in space between the speakers but from instruments with mass behind them. The novelty of the added bass depth wares off a bit after several days and you can start really enjoying the music. I say the sound is more "grown up" because that thin airyness of the 20.23s can have more instant wow appeal for those upgrading from something that never got close to that type of great soundstage. While the 25.23s provide an even wider and more realistic soundstage, the added weightiness and solidity to the instruments makes everything more natural and therefore you're less likely to single out a single aspect of hifi. If the standout attention grabber for the 20.23s was the air soundstage, for the 25.23s its vocal clarity. It is very clear and real and needs to be heard to be understood. No point trying to even explain it. If you're used to vocals on the 20.23s, then there is goign to be a fair shock at what comes forth on the 25.23s. A clarity and linearity that isn't usual on a passive 2-way speaker.

UPS claims inspector came today. He was utterly dismayed by the boxes and found more points of abuse than even I did and took pics off all of them. He confirmed they had no record of customs doing any inspection. And as I was told by others, did not correlate specific box damage to speaker damage.

Very interesting write up FZ. I can't wait to hear the new 25.26s. If these have moved on as much as the 23s have in Twenty5 guise, then they are going to be very special. Just need to be wary of potentially even bigger bass.

How do they perform at low levels in comparison to the 20.23

leni v posted:

How do they perform at low levels in comparison to the 20.23

I have yet to do the Sunday morning coffee and pancakes playlist. I'll let you know.

Minor revelation. I think the 25.23s need a bit more air behind them than the 20.23s. Slightest bit of boominess at the same position as the old ones.

nigelb posted:

Very interesting write up FZ. I can't wait to hear the new 25.26s. If these have moved on as much as the 23s have in Twenty5 guise, then they are going to be very special. Just need to be wary of potentially even bigger bass.

I have just traded up from ob1is to the 25.26s and straight out of the box they sound awesome and my room is 4mtrs x 4.5mtrs... I had the 20.26 on home demo and thought that the soundscape was a lot deeper than the ob1is..having been listening to the 25.26s for over a week now the sound is wider and punchier in the bass. Can't wait until they are properly run in...

Freelander your amp and source please

Naim nap 200 Nac 202 hi cap dr cdx2.1 with XPS ...napsc and chord indigo interconnect

Thanks

freelander posted:

nigelb posted:

Very interesting write up FZ. I can't wait to hear the new 25.26s. If these have moved on as much as the 23s have in Twenty5 guise, then they are going to be very special. Just need to be wary of potentially even bigger bass.

I have just traded up from ob1is to the 25.26s and straight out of the box they sound awesome and my room is 4mtrs x 4.5mtrs... I had the 20.26 on home demo and thought that the soundscape was a lot deeper than the ob1is..having been listening to the 25.26s for over a week now the sound is wider and punchier in the bass. Can't wait until they are properly run in...

Wow this is very lucky. My room as 8m x 5m and it is clear that even the 24s would have been too much in my room. But then I have a sprung floor to contend with.

feeling_zen posted:

 Apparently the 26s really only sound right in a very large room and need plenty of air behind them and at least 10 feet of space between them for starters. The 6/7 feet commonly used in most listening areas makes them sound awful apparently. This is all anecdotal info.

More anecdotal info:  My Twenty.26s are 6.5ft apart (centre to centre) and sound stunning.  Medium sized room - 28ft by 11.5ft

Heard the Twenty5.26 at Indulgence last week and they sounded very good indeed from a musical perspective.  Unfortunately PMC had struggled with the room a bit and to get the sound balance at its best, they'd had to position the speakers approx. 11 or 12 ft apart and there was no central imaging at all.

sunbeamgls posted:

feeling_zen posted:

 Apparently the 26s really only sound right in a very large room and need plenty of air behind them and at least 10 feet of space between them for starters. The 6/7 feet commonly used in most listening areas makes them sound awful apparently. This is all anecdotal info.

More anecdotal info:  My Twenty.26s are 6.5ft apart (centre to centre) and sound stunning.  Medium sized room - 28ft by 11.5ft

Heard the Twenty5.26 at Indulgence last week and they sounded very good indeed from a musical perspective.  Unfortunately PMC had struggled with the room a bit and to get the sound balance at its best, they'd had to position the speakers approx. 11 or 12 ft apart and there was no central imaging at all.

Just goes to show there are rules of thumb but no absolutes that make up for experimenting in your own home.

And the fighting with the insurance company has begun. Everything from "they work so your claim is denied." to "We'll pay a carpenter to make new cabinets for them." and my favorite, "we'll only cover the loss in value between what you would get if you sold them second hand in good condition to second hand with damage." (which they made out was less than the excess anyway).

Unfortunately that is typical of insurance companies, always happy to take our money but not willing to cough up without a serious fight.

if not already, can I suggest involving PMC in this, assuming ther transit insurance was bought by them though paid for by you, meaning the insurance company contract is with them. Different if you bought the insurance direct, though even then PMC's support if they are willing might help. The last thing OMC will want is their name marred by unsatisfactory outcome - it is one thing to have a glitch with a product, but the result has to be fixed to the customer's satisfaction.

The 'difference in value' thing is easily solved. They provide you with a replacement brand new pair and, at their expense, collect the damaged pair. They can, at their own convenience, sell the damaged pair and retain the money they sell them for.

Of course, with their time taken to do all this, they'll probably end up out of pocket, which is even better

The insurance is under the dealer's name so it is their claim but the policy stipulates that claim must be made by the receiver of the goods in the country of destination and local language. They're also demanding documents from UPS that so far UPS do not have and unless UPS can locate those documents will not even file a claim number for me.

I've asked the dealer to "tell" PMC to issue a document indicating they are not worth repairing. Which is true. The cost in labor of dismantling a speaker for all the parts to assemble in a new cabinet is likely to be very high. I've spent 2 work days on this with the insurance company already since they keep moving the goalpost. A few more and the cost to my time would actually have made it cheaper had I just dumped them in a skip and ordered a new pair full cost.

Not that I would. If the insurance company does not take posession of them I may employ them as rears.

Not thrilled because, as I mentioned, yes the boxes went through the mill but the damage happened before being boxed up. PMC disagree strongly which pisses me off because I'm actually the one who has the boxes to see and touch and know what is possible and not. They've only admitted to incorrect packing causing the scratched tops.

The bright side is that this is by far the least offensive or expensive way I have been shafted this month. Something bad happened that cost me the equivelent of a full year's salary with no option for appeal or recourse. So the PMCs are a minor irritant compared to the other thing.

feeling_zen posted:

leni v posted:

How do they perform at low levels in comparison to the 20.23

I have yet to do the Sunday morning coffee and pancakes playlist. I'll let you know.

Better. The more substantial low end means that things with a bass line hang together better when the volume is low (say at just 7:30 on the dial). With the 20.23s, you had the intact soundstage even at low volumes but below certain volumes the bass lines could fade a bit. Still, other speakers in the price range of the 20.23s would normally lose the plot with regards to soundstange at those levels. It's a bit like comparing a low level star performer with an even better star performer. Sure, with the 25.23s, you turn down the volume and your bass player shrinks to a Kenny Baker sized munchkin but he's still in the room groovin' away.

Another revelation: even though the on-paper specs are not radically different from the 20.23, the 25.23s are a tad more sensitive under a real load. 1w/1m2 measurements aside (they are with 0.5db of each other), if you listened to the 20.23s at (for example) 10 O'Clock on the dial, expect that to migrate to 9:30 or less. I've not actually measured the output for a comparison but they seem VERY loud at the volume position I had become accustomed to (normally 9 O'Clock).

Pros:

• Far superior bass in terms of both quantity and quality (amazingly clear)
• Even wider soundstage than the 20.23s
• Fuller sound makes everything more substantial with a sense of mass behind it. As with all proper upgrades it should life a veil and they do.
• Vocal performance in the midband is nothing short of amazing. Just not what you expect from a 2-way design.
• Can fill a large room. Forget those silly WHF reviews describing them as big sounding for the size. Utter nonsense. They just sound big. Full stop.
• Great a very low levels too.

Cons (or just things to be ware of):

• The sonic character is sufficiently different whereby swapping 20.23s out for 25.23s untested is definately not risk free.
• Added bass response may require different positioning to the 20.23s.
• Might be a tad too sensitive (I know how strange this sounds with a 86.5db speaker) if you currently use 20.23s and don't crank the dial past 8 O'Clock on a Naim amp then you only have 1 hour on the dial between min and comfortable max. Not an issue if you have more realistic listening levels.