It's happening: PMC Twenty.23 upgrade to Twenty5.23

Great write up FZ, very informative. They should also continue getting better.

Hope you get a satisfactory outcome with the insurance claim.

Great write up FZ, thanks. Interesting to hear your experiences of old v. New.

As NigelB says, hope you get the claim sorted asap.

Still opening up with amazing presence and incredible scale. But also still trying to find the best position to ensure the bass is as linear as possible. With the 20.23 you could more or less ignore the recommendations from PMC about how much space was needed between the rear wall. This is not so with the 25.23s so they come out into the room a little more than I am comfirtable with aesthetically.

On the replacement front no good news yet. UPS are extremely shifty dishonnest buggers. Any claim requires a copy of the AIrway Bill. As someone who has handled literally hundreds of claims for customers in past, I can confirm this is correct and normal as it is the only document of carriage of any legal standing. UPS neglected to give the dealer (the consignee) a copy and have actually gone as far as to say they have never heard of such a document. The last copy I should have had was removed from the document wallet by customs. Anyone who knows anything about air frieght knows this is not a misunderstanding but a gross outright lie. It would be like the DVLA claiming they had never heard of a driving license. It puts me in a tough position. I could take legal action but that would cost me far more than the cost of the speakers and by then the maximum period for the insurance claim would have expired.

I fear I have no choice but to give it another week or so of fighting with them before I simply have to just order a new pair out of my own pocket. The cost to my own time alone is approaching the cost of the speakers.

If carriage and insurance were arranged by PMC then the responsibility for delivering what you ordered in good condition lies with them, including responsibility for any documentation they should have had or should have retained etc. I suggest you politely inform them of this while advising them of where you got trying to deal with on their behalf, clarifying that in the end you are their customer, and look to them to resolve the matter - after all it is their reputation for quality and customer service that is affected as well as you personally.

Innocent Bystander posted:

If carriage and insurance were arranged by PMC then the responsibility for delivering what you ordered in good condition lies with them, including responsibility for any documentation they should have had or should have retained etc. I suggest you politely inform them of this while advising them of where you got trying to deal with on their behalf, clarifying that in the end you are their customer, and look to them to resolve the matter - after all it is their reputation for quality and customer service that is affected as well as you personally.

PMC weren't involved in any way with the international shipping arrangements.

feeling_zen posted:

Still opening up with amazing presence and incredible scale. But also still trying to find the best position to ensure the bass is as linear as possible. With the 20.23 you could more or less ignore the recommendations from PMC about how much space was needed between the rear wall. This is not so with the 25.23s so they come out into the room a little more than I am comfirtable with aesthetically.

On the replacement front no good news yet. UPS are extremely shifty dishonnest buggers. Any claim requires a copy of the AIrway Bill. As someone who has handled literally hundreds of claims for customers in past, I can confirm this is correct and normal as it is the only document of carriage of any legal standing. UPS neglected to give the dealer (the consignee) a copy and have actually gone as far as to say they have never heard of such a document. The last copy I should have had was removed from the document wallet by customs. Anyone who knows anything about air frieght knows this is not a misunderstanding but a gross outright lie. It would be like the DVLA claiming they had never heard of a driving license. It puts me in a tough position. I could take legal action but that would cost me far more than the cost of the speakers and by then the maximum period for the insurance claim would have expired.

I fear I have no choice but to give it another week or so of fighting with them before I simply have to just order a new pair out of my own pocket. The cost to my own time alone is approaching the cost of the speakers.

I cannot believe that a huge courier/parcel company like UPS can actually believe they can get away with claiming they have never head of an Airway Bill. Outrageous! Many years ago I used to organise airfreight of hazardous and non-hazardous materials all over the world and never had such ridiculous issues to deal with.

Apologies if you have already tried this, but I can't help thinking that UPS must have a central or regional complaints office. I think these companies mischievously refer to them as 'Customer Care' or 'Customer Service' departments. But there should be a facility somewhere within UPS to handle such disputes. I realise that, as a UPS office, they may be less than neutral, but it might be worth a go. It might be worth checking who else in the chain gets a copy (or might have made a copy) of the Airway Bill to see if you can get hold of it. Again sorry if you have tried all this, it must be extremely irritating. 

Well at least the 25.23s seem to be performing brilliantly. I hope you get things sorted without resorting to more expenditure.

And as for UPS they should be ashamed to call themselves a freight company.

Hi

am sorry to read about the damage to your PMC's.

I did look up this thread when it started and i believed since you guys live in a place which has much more freer import - export rules than where i live - you would have had this sorted.

But i seem to be wrong.

FZ - please do give a shout to PMC on this. I read that they are not involved with this at all but if i was in PMC's position i would hate to let down a customer like you and i would do my best to make it as easy for you to get a new pair ( if not totally free ). Please write to them direct in UK and you might get help from the folks at PMC.

They are human - as well.

The folks at Naim ( Steven Hopkins ) and at Dubai Audio have been very helpful to me since i live so far away from any Naim dealer.

regards

mpw

mpw posted:

Hi

am sorry to read about the damage to your PMC's.

I did look up this thread when it started and i believed since you guys live in a place which has much more freer import - export rules than where i live - you would have had this sorted.

But i seem to be wrong.

FZ - please do give a shout to PMC on this. I read that they are not involved with this at all but if i was in PMC's position i would hate to let down a customer like you and i would do my best to make it as easy for you to get a new pair ( if not totally free ). Please write to them direct in UK and you might get help from the folks at PMC.

They are human - as well.

The folks at Naim ( Steven Hopkins ) and at Dubai Audio have been very helpful to me since i live so far away from any Naim dealer.

regards

mpw

I appreciate the advice. My dealer had called them direct and given them the riot act about the damage. With moderate success. They did admit to packing incorrectly causing "some" of the damage but refused to accept the other evidence. They were the ones who pushed back and advised to claim on the insurance - which pissed me off but, as I explained earlier, is technically the correct approach once a carrier has delivered cartons in an obviously damaged state they should be on the hook for all the damage. The most they have offered is to prepare reinforced cartons when my dealer places the order for replacements. Techically they may be right in their approach but I'm not thrilled about it from a customer support perspective.

UPS is another matter entirely. I might take nigelb's advice and file a complaint about how they have handled the claim. Since UPS direct that all complaints should be handled by their customer service desk (which is where all the retarded "we don't know what an Airway Bill document is" responses come from) and neither the UK or Japan sides seem to have the edge over the other in terms of IQ, I guess a midnight call at my end to catch their US HQ during business hours might be in order. Just to give an example of how much crap UPS are full of, my insurance company asked for the flight number that the goods arrived on. UPS had the audacity to claim that "it's our own plane so there are no flight numbers". I think the airtraffic controllers at Narita airport might take exception to that bold claim.

If it were Fedex or DHL, you can even get reprints of AWB docs online. But their breakage rates are just as bad - and they cost more.

Thanks for the commentary on how the 25.23's have improved, FZ. Interesting point re: the difference in character/sound between them and the 20.23's. I hope things have continued to improve and you've made some steps towards resolving the damage sustained.

Mayor West posted:

Thanks for the commentary on how the 25.23's have improved, FZ. Interesting point re: the difference in character/sound between them and the 20.23's. I hope things have continued to improve and you've made some steps towards resolving the damage sustained.

Been a bit busy at the office to do listening lately. I had planned the final post to be after a new pair is in place in their final resting spot and run in a bit. Currently, the only place to put the boxes for the damaged pair is in the corner of the same room and the empty boxes also tend to noticable colour the sound by resonating, So I am kind of in a holding pattern with regard to hearing  them at their desired end state.

As for the claim. It is all going fantastically pear shaped. Don't anyone use CNA insurance coupled with UPS. You are likely to face the following nonsense.

• UPS dragging heels on issuing response to claim. Did get them to admit they know what an AIr Waybill is but they refused to issue a copy.
• PMC have been sitting on the request for 2 weeks and counting to provide a quote showing that repairing them (stippnig them down and refitting all the parts in new cabinets) is cost prohibitive. Rich considering they were the ones that said to handle this via an insurance claim.
• Had them appriased for damaged goods value in Japan and the value was zero (in fact they'd charge me to take them away). Since they have no valid warranty now, no guarantee the damage is doesn't affect performance, not a model supported by PMC in Japan, and no legal proof of original sale recognised in Japan. Problem is, both places that appraised will only issue a written quote if the value is greater than zero so the insurance company said they think the residual value is still GBP2K. The value they offered was only only slightly more than the cost of shipping. I told them to piss off.
• Insurance company doesn't recognise VAT and thinks all calculations should be based on the excluding VAT price for some strange reason.

Basically I am being conned but as I work full time and have a baby to take care of, my bandwidth for dealing with this crap and escalting is near zero. My dealer is on the phone to all the related parties also each day and also given the run around. We're always told the claim needs to be handled at the point of receipt in Japan by insurer's proxy here but when I challenge anything I am told that I cannot refuse because I am not the insurance contract holder which is the dealer and back and forth we go.

Have learned a lesson though. I have done the math. It is not worh insuring any item below GBP4K. The cost to recoup the insurance will be greater in terms of everyone's time (which is not free) than it would to just sling the 23s in a skip and order a new pair out of my own pocket. Therefore, as far as I am concerned, below 4K, don't insure. Of course the threshold depends on factors like how much you earn divided by hours in a year and how much time you predict can be wasted making a claim (I assure you, massive amounts of time inclding days off work waiting for people to come and take pics of your broken gear).

Feeling Zen, this sounds horrendous... certainly makes one feel wary about over seas goods  purchasing..

i've read with interest this post and i can't believe in 2016 this things can take wrong turn or can be sorted  this way. I live in Romania, and really dont't think have solutions for this kind of problem, other than speak with my dealer and solve on warranty. It's sad and same time is frustrating to see how big companies who should sort this things out just prefer to hide in the details, instead assuming...

On the other hand it's great that you are pleased with the new sound, and this little thing don't affect your passion for music. 

Adi.

FZ, words fail me. All these so-called professional organisations are clearly making life difficult to avoid any responsibility that should rightly come their way. It seems you have done all you can (short of making it a life mission) and nobody is prepared to take responsibility. You clearly and understandably have more important things to deal with.

I am enjoying reading how the 25.23's are settling in and hope you find time to keep us informed.

All the best.

Nigel

Well the quote from PMC came in. Including carriage, the cost of repaire is 50% more than a new pair inc UK VAT. That should give those insurers something to chew on.

My dealer has filed a complaint about the handling of the claim with the insurance HQ. Now we just need UPS to pull their finger out.

Houston, we have lift off.

My dealer raising hell at the insurance company worked. They'll cover the full retail cost. In the meantime they'll take posession of the damaged pair so I'll say goodbye to a run in pair of 25.23s and have to wait for PMC to ship a new pair and start running them in again.

But it takes us in the right direction.

Congratulations! I've been following your thread with interest in your new speakers ('m a fan of PMC) My passing interest turned to sadness on hearing about the damage in transit and original packing then disbelief and anger at the way you are being treated by the insurance company and courier trying to avoid any liability. Much, much more could be said but I'm delighted the problem seems to have been resolved in your favour. Hopefully PMC will arrange for more substantial transportation boxes that can withstand the tender mercies of the next set of in transit handlers! They sound like excellent speakers for your room and set up so although you have to wait once more, at least you have something very worthwhile to look forward to.

feeling_zen posted:

Houston, we have lift off.

My dealer raising hell at the insurance company worked. They'll cover the full retail cost. In the meantime they'll take posession of the damaged pair so I'll say goodbye to a run in pair of 25.23s and have to wait for PMC to ship a new pair and start running them in again.

But it takes us in the right direction.

Just tell them to pack correctly this time

Hallelujah!

Glad to hear things are finally getting resolved. Well done to your dealer and well done (eventaully) to the insurance company.

Might be worth you firing an email to PMC to make sure the boxing this time is better than their last pathetic attempt. They make great speakers, just need to learn how to pack them securely.

Speakerless again.

New ones still on back order but the insurance company demanded the old ones to be verifiably destroyed before making payment. They did not want to take possession of them in Japan so I was given 2 options:

• Saw them up into 30cm chunks and take pictures including the dismembered bit showing the serial numbers or...
• Take pictures of them being hauled off as outsized rubbish with rubibish men's paid collection seel and registration number shown stuck to them as they are hauled off. Literally the Japanese equivelent of dumping them in a skip.

It's all a bit silly really. Since sawing them up would waste even more time and money I opted for the latter and hauled them down to the outsize collection point.

Back to headphones for a while I suppose.

I suppose that removing the drive units or, less visibly, the crossovers, before disposal wasn't an option?

Innocent Bystander posted:

I suppose that removing the drive units or, less visibly, the crossovers, before disposal wasn't an option?

If it was I wouldn't be in a position to say so in a public space.

Well, sorry to hear you are speakerless - hopefully replacement will be expedited, and at least you have done much of the work required to find best positioning when they do srrive.

14 weeks after the fiasco started, my mint condition pair of Twenty5.23s arrived today.

I can't say the outer cartons were any less beaten up this time round and when I tried to note the condition of the boxes on arrival (just in case), the delivery ape gruffly told me I could inspect the boxes all I want be he won't accept any notification of box condition or even even offer me the chance to refuse the shipment. As far as he was concerned I was home so he we delivering them one way or another. Charming.

Time to start running them in all over again and fine tune the placement now the boxes are gone and not resonating like bass boards. I think the struggle gave both me and my dealer some more grey hairs to worry about. I will never insure any item for shipping costing less than a 252 again. The insurance bastards make sure that making any claim will cost you as much in lost time as the item is worth in the first place.

A line can be drawn under the whole sordid affair and I can get back to grooving.

Pleased to learn that it is now all over. Hopefully your preliminary experimentation with the damaged pair means minimal playing is now needed with positioning, so you can focus on starting to enjoy as they bed in.

Insurance is enough of a gamble at the best of times, but clearly the international aspect makes it worse. No consolation to you, but your experience might help others considering similar.

What a thread..... Longer than Lord of the Rings!! 

We needed a happy ending