Source First ? Really?

The Strat (Fender) posted:

Guys,

Naim now demonstrate the Uniti entry model with Focal Sopra 1s. 

Which means precisely nothing, other than that they don't make any speakers of their own. Only an idiot would match an all in one Uniti with £6,000 speakers if they were using their own money. 

Hungryhalibut posted:

The Strat (Fender) posted:

Guys,

Naim now demonstrate the Uniti entry model with Focal Sopra 1s. 

Which means precisely nothing, other than that they don't make any speakers of their own. Only an idiot would match an all in one Uniti with £6,000 speakers if they were using their own money. 

Who are you to cast such a judgement on how people may choose to allocate their money?

Only an idiot would match an all in one Uniti with £6,000 speakers if they were using their own money. 

 

Sorry Nigel, but while I agree with both you and Gary about the importance of the source in a system, I cannot agree with calling people who make a different choice "idiots"

Source first has always served me well in 40 years of HiFi addiction, but I have had many friends who have made different choices and been happy with them. None of them have been idiots. Their choices will have been for their own reasons, but never without being informed.

I well remember in 1986 sitting next to my best friend, whose dad introduced me to HiFi, and comparing a Rega Planar 2 to a mid range CD player. He loved the CD sound, and I hated it. It was 20 years before I allowed a CD player in my system (CDX2), he dumped his vinyl from 86 onwards, but his sources were always more expensive than mine, as was the case with CD in the early years.

I have appreciated your insight for many years on  this forum, and I thank you for that, 

Paul.

Hungryhalibut posted:

Thanks Gary. At least you have some common sense, which seems to be in short supply. 

That seems a rather odd statement, to put it mildly. Where exactly is the commonsense in this debate, and who,is defining it?

Gentlemen - let's be civil here.

Everyone is entitled to their opinions and how they express it.Some may find certain expressions offensive, whilst some will find it enjoyable.

Music is the most important source for every playback system.

I think this thread has ran its course - perhaps one of the moderators could consider closing it.

Adam

Hungryhalibut posted:

.Only an idiot would match an all in one Uniti with £6,000 speakers if they were using their own money. 

On what basis do you make that statement? HAve you heard the new Uniti series into said speakers? What has the spender  got to do with it? Are Naim demonstrators idiots? 

I am inclined to think they are not idiots, and do that as a demonstration because it sounds good. Why else?

Adam Zielinski posted:

Gentlemen - let's be civil here.

Everyone is entitled to their opinions and how they express it.Some may find certain expressions offensive, whilst some will find it enjoyable.

Music is the most important source for every playback system.

I think this thread has ran its course - perhaps one of the moderators could consider closing it.

Adam

Whilst I wholeheartedly agree that people mustbremain civil and not get aggressive or abusive, so far it has generally been a very interesting debate, so it would be a shame to close it. But if anyone oversteps the matk they should be censured.

Okay let me (who as we are today has a front loaded system) put it this way.  Some little while ago a group of us attended a demo of the Sopra 2s.   The first session was conducted with a ND5XS and SN2 and my first impression was what a coherent, full and musical presentation.  Now has we worked through various configurations and concluded with a NDS/555/552/300 there was of course an obvious increase in performance but the evidence was clear that there are various ways to arrive at a satisfactory solution.  

Regards,

Lindsay

Hungryhalibut posted:

The Strat (Fender) posted:

Guys,

Naim now demonstrate the Uniti entry model with Focal Sopra 1s. 

Which means precisely nothing, other than that they don't make any speakers of their own. Only an idiot would match an all in one Uniti with £6,000 speakers if they were using their own money. 

you sure ? I know people who are matching to a 3,600 GBP power amp  3,400 GBP worth of Preamp and Source , and they're very happy. I heard it and no way  I'd ever splash anything lesser than a 3610 GBP into source and 4,395 GBP preamp in such a scheme.But  I may be wrong as they do find some special things ...so that's to say never call people that way, crazy, idiots  as they may prove to still show good common sense . 

Um, have we all been taken in by the "vindicated" OP?

Chris

Psychologically (and literally) there is no sound at all until it emerges from the speakers. This can create a subjective 'feeling' that the speakers are very important. Add to this the fact we sit outside of a box listening to said box 'inside another box' (the room) and the box/box interaction being very chancy I can see why someone might want to invest in expensive, well designed acoustic transducers!

Actually one of the best speakers I've heard lately were old Quad ESL63s. Worked brilliantly on my 250DR as well as a SuperNait2...

I hope I'm not out of order saying this, but I've found this thread to be very entertaining.

That said, I do think as Adam has mentioned everyone is entitled to their view.... It's the ability to express said view in a more diplomatic way that would be helpful..... And it might well, be the difference between  taking on board what is said or ignoring it...

I have always been a source first bloke, and by source first I mean getting the best source you can afford within reason so it usually has a financial aspect to the selection process as well as an aural one. In recent years I guess I have moved a little towards a balance first approach.

This is because the cost of digital sources has reduced relative to the analog and CD 'equivalent' (as I type this I realise I have no way of gauging what equivalent actually means) and other components of the current state-of-the art of music reproduction in the home appear to have a bigger and bigger influence in the overall SQ of a system.

To what 'other components' do I refer? Well a very few years ago I would never have dreamt of paying almost as much for speaker cables as I have for a power amp. I certainly would not have paid such an eye-watering price for a humble interconnect either. Yes, I refer to SuperLumina (or should that be SuperLoony…eh?). Due to my scepticism, I subjected myself to the most rigorous, anally retentive home demos of these bits of wire. I needn't have gone to such lengths, it was evident very early on in these epic home demos what impact these bits of wire have on the music emanating from my system. It was just very new to me and at some point I would have to admit (even to myself) how much I had spent on wires!

The second 'other component' to which I refer is not a component at all, it is a modification or upgrade to existing power amps and power supplies. Of course I refer to the DR update. How can this innocuous little PCB (and admittedly the addition of posh new transistors in the case of the power amps) have such a profound effect? So I found myself trading in a perfectly good, and relatively new NAP250.2 for a 250DR and loosing some cash in the process. You might say that was rather strange behaviour unless you heard what impact the addition of the DR bit to my power amp had on the music. By the way, my pre amp power supply is also a DR version.

And there are other new things we now have to take notice of and 'get right' (whatever that means). Here I am referring the the whole grizzly business of optimising your LAN for streaming. Here the enemy is the noise that now pervades our digital world and finds its way into to a LAN and pollutes our digital sources. Yes, we have to think about switches, SMPSs, routers, ethernet cables! I do not want to put anyone off getting into streaming here and you can set up a LAN very simply and there will always be the help and advice of dealers. But we are still learning how to get the best LAN set up and getting the best from LANs.

So having been an avid source first bloke, recent developments and the advent of the streaming in audio has thrown all that up in the air. For me it is now not even a question of balance first, but a good deal of trial and error throughout the chain. Other things are however far simpler - four letters - DR and SL.

Room, room and then more room - can be much more significant than any part of the boxes source or speakers. To say that system A will beat system B without defining the playing field or the game seems somewhat pointless to me

wenger2015 posted:

.... It's the ability to express said view in a more diplomatic way that would be helpful..... 

Ah! Diplomacy...  To quote Zhou Enlai, "All Diplomacy is the continuation of War by other means.".

That however that's an appropriation (via a logical inversion) of an earlier quote from Carl von Clausewitz: "War is not merely a political act, but also a real political instrument ... a carrying out of the same with other means."

this source first debate as a user of 272/300DR/555PS/Sonus Faber Cremona.... 

price wise my source is the less expensive one..

so any user of 272 is not source first person? even with 250DR....

am i missing something in the logic?

and 272 is quite popular source these days....

or hugo.... 1k source running 282/300DR

so maybe old mantras are not adequate to todays world...

Huge posted:

wenger2015 posted:

.... It's the ability to express said view in a more diplomatic way that would be helpful..... 

Ah! Diplomacy...  To quote Zhou Enlai, "All Diplomacy is the continuation of War by other means.".

That however that's an appropriation (via a logical inversion) of an earlier quote from Carl von Clausewitz: "War is not merely a political act, but also a real political instrument ... a carrying out of the same with other means."

Huge, +1 

I'm feeding s400's from a Superuniti via a 300dr. 

I'm an idiot. 

Drewy posted:

I'm feeding s400's from a Superuniti via a 300dr. 

I'm an idiot. 

You're only an idiot for confessing on this thread!! 

This is the thread to get it off your chest, come out and admit where you haven't been adhering to 'source first'

Innocent Bystander posted:

Hungryhalibut posted:

.Only an idiot would match an all in one Uniti with £6,000 speakers if they were using their own money. 

On what basis do you make that statement? HAve you heard the new Uniti series into said speakers? What has the spender  got to do with it? Are Naim demonstrators idiots? 

I am inclined to think they are not idiots, and do that as a demonstration because it sounds good. Why else?

The Unitis and Sopras are Naim's and Focal's new products, so they are put together for marketing rather than system building logic. If anyone had to stump up £9,000 of their own money, would the best sound be delivered by a £3,000 Uniti and a £6,000 Sopra? No, it would not, and there are far better ways to divvy up the budget. That's why I say they'd be an idiot. If anyone has a problem with that view, send an email to Naim and ask them, and I bet nobody there would recommend spending your money in that way.

Drewy posted:

I'm feeding s400's from a Superuniti via a 300dr. 

I'm an idiot. 

Ouch... The streaming unit in SU is a bit compromised by how much had to be crammed into a standard-size case.

Adam Zielinski posted:

Drewy posted:

I'm feeding s400's from a Superuniti via a 300dr. 

I'm an idiot. 

Ouch... The streaming unit in SU is a bit compromised by how much had to be crammed into a standard-size case.

So is the preamp, but think how much fun you could have spending your way out of that problem.......

SU/300 is not a sensible long term proposition, but as a step on the ladder it's a good way to go.