Source First ? Really?

ChrisSU posted:

Adam Zielinski posted:

Drewy posted:

I'm feeding s400's from a Superuniti via a 300dr. 

I'm an idiot. 

Ouch... The streaming unit in SU is a bit compromised by how much had to be crammed into a standard-size case.

So is the preamp, but think how much fun you could have spending your way out of that problem.......

I suggest upgrade the 300 for a 500....dr of course...

Hungryhalibut posted:

SU/300 is not a sensible long term proposition, but as a step on the ladder it's a good way to go. 

HH.....now that's a far more diplomatic answer ...im impressed 

Hungryhalibut posted:

Innocent Bystander posted:

Hungryhalibut posted:

.Only an idiot would match an all in one Uniti with £6,000 speakers if they were using their own money. 

On what basis do you make that statement? HAve you heard the new Uniti series into said speakers? What has the spender  got to do with it? Are Naim demonstrators idiots? 

I am inclined to think they are not idiots, and do that as a demonstration because it sounds good. Why else?

The Unitis and Sopras are Naim's and Focal's new products, so they are put together for marketing rather than system building logic. If anyone had to stump up £9,000 of their own money, would the best sound be delivered by a £3,000 Uniti and a £6,000 Sopra? No, it would not, and there are far better ways to divvy up the budget. That's why I say they'd be an idiot. If anyone has a problem with that view, send an email to Naim and ask them, and I bet nobody there would recommend spending your money in that way.

So it doesn't sound good then? And Naim are demonstrating with it? Why would they do that?

Innocent Bystander posted:

Hungryhalibut posted:

Innocent Bystander posted:

Hungryhalibut posted:

.Only an idiot would match an all in one Uniti with £6,000 speakers if they were using their own money. 

On what basis do you make that statement? HAve you heard the new Uniti series into said speakers? What has the spender  got to do with it? Are Naim demonstrators idiots? 

I am inclined to think they are not idiots, and do that as a demonstration because it sounds good. Why else?

The Unitis and Sopras are Naim's and Focal's new products, so they are put together for marketing rather than system building logic. If anyone had to stump up £9,000 of their own money, would the best sound be delivered by a £3,000 Uniti and a £6,000 Sopra? No, it would not, and there are far better ways to divvy up the budget. That's why I say they'd be an idiot. If anyone has a problem with that view, send an email to Naim and ask them, and I bet nobody there would recommend spending your money in that way.

Somit doesn't sound good then? And Naim are demonstrating with it? Why would they do that?

Probably for the same reason they keep on demonstrating Statement with those huge Focal monsters - commercial pressure.

ChrisSU posted:

Innocent Bystander posted:

Hungryhalibut posted:

Innocent Bystander posted:

Hungryhalibut posted:

.Only an idiot would match an all in one Uniti with £6,000 speakers if they were using their own money. 

On what basis do you make that statement? HAve you heard the new Uniti series into said speakers? What has the spender  got to do with it? Are Naim demonstrators idiots? 

I am inclined to think they are not idiots, and do that as a demonstration because it sounds good. Why else?

The Unitis and Sopras are Naim's and Focal's new products, so they are put together for marketing rather than system building logic. If anyone had to stump up £9,000 of their own money, would the best sound be delivered by a £3,000 Uniti and a £6,000 Sopra? No, it would not, and there are far better ways to divvy up the budget. That's why I say they'd be an idiot. If anyone has a problem with that view, send an email to Naim and ask them, and I bet nobody there would recommend spending your money in that way.

Somit doesn't sound good then? And Naim are demonstrating with it? Why would they do that?

Probably for the same reason they keep on demonstrating Statement with those huge Focal monsters - commercial pressure.

Statement and Focal monsters, I'm sure it's a good combination,  just not to be demod in a broom cupboard... 

wenger2015 posted:

Statement and Focal monsters, I'm sure it's a good combination,  just not to be demod in a broom cupboard... 

If I had a system that size in my room the only place left that's big enough for me to sit in would be the broom cupboard

wenger2015 posted:

ChrisSU posted:

Innocent Bystander posted:

Hungryhalibut posted:

Innocent Bystander posted:

Hungryhalibut posted:

.Only an idiot would match an all in one Uniti with £6,000 speakers if they were using their own money. 

On what basis do you make that statement? HAve you heard the new Uniti series into said speakers? What has the spender  got to do with it? Are Naim demonstrators idiots? 

I am inclined to think they are not idiots, and do that as a demonstration because it sounds good. Why else?

The Unitis and Sopras are Naim's and Focal's new products, so they are put together for marketing rather than system building logic. If anyone had to stump up £9,000 of their own money, would the best sound be delivered by a £3,000 Uniti and a £6,000 Sopra? No, it would not, and there are far better ways to divvy up the budget. That's why I say they'd be an idiot. If anyone has a problem with that view, send an email to Naim and ask them, and I bet nobody there would recommend spending your money in that way.

Somit doesn't sound good then? And Naim are demonstrating with it? Why would they do that?

Probably for the same reason they keep on demonstrating Statement with those huge Focal monsters - commercial pressure.

Statement and Focal monsters, I'm sure it's a good combination,  just not to be demod in a broom cupboard... 

Sounds like a bag of spanners in a hotel room 

Hungryhalibut posted:

Unitis and Sopras are Naim's and Focal's new products, so they are put together for marketing rather than system building logic. If anyone had to stump up £9,000 of their own money, would the best sound be delivered by a £3,000 Uniti and a £6,000 Sopra? No, it would not, and there are far better ways to divvy up the budget. That's why I say they'd be an idiot. If anyone has a problem with that view, send an email to Naim and ask them, and I bet nobody there would recommend spending your money in that way.

If I had £9k to build a system from scratch I'd buy a Mac Mini,   Audirvana & Hugo for about £2.5k, Bryston amp for £2.5k econdhand (£5k if new) PMC EB1 speakers for £4k secondhand (they'd be £8-9k new if still available now). It will sound very good indeed.

Nobody said anything about 272, in the source first contex, are you all ignoring me?

Beachcomber posted:

I have often felt that is a somewhat sterile argument, in that it depends on so many things.  I have lost count of the number of changes I've made to my system over the last 45 years or so, starting with old radios and any odd speaker that I could get hold of, through Sinclair amps (can't remember - Z30, Z50?) through Wharfedale Dentons, Armstrong receiver (223?), Texas amplifer kit, all fronted by Garrard SP25 MKII, then Pioneer PL12, followed by Bailey kit amp and a preamp built from Wireless World design (ultimate preamp or something like that), then Naim NAP 120 and NAC 22, now through Naim 702 speakers, and with Rega Planar 3, then went active (copied the 120 for the second amp - naughty of me) and so on through active SBL with 135s and 52, via NAP300 to now with Ovator S600, NAP 500, NAC52 and NDX.  During this time some of the biggest changes were speakers, speaker cables (from 2-amp mains via 6-amp, 72-strand to Naim cable), power amps, not often the preamp, and to a lesser extent the front end. The change from an early Garrard (looks like the 301/401 but had an integrated tone arm, rather than separately mounted) to an SP25 didn't seem to make a lot of difference, the PL12D was better (using various cartridges, mainly Audio Technica IIRC), nor did the move to the Planar 3, TBH.  The big change, of course, was from the Dentons to the Naim 701s.  Going active was another major change. The change from those to the SBLs (also active with 4 135s) was good.  The next big change was the S600 Ovators, with two of the 135s initially, then the 300 (amp change there was not so significant) and then the 500 (very worthwhile - much better than the 300, which was no slouch).  Changing from CDX/XPS through HDX to NDX was less noticeable than many of the other changes.

Balance is of course important.  Put a 552/NDS/500 through some cheap Technics speakers, and it won't be very impressive.  Change the speakers to something better and of course the system will improve.  DBLs driven by a Sony receiver wouldn't reach their potential.  I don't believe there is a useful correlation or rule of thumb between the costs of TT/CD player, preamp, amp and speakers.  There are power balances between speaker and amplifier of course (e.g. horns work fine with Class A generally, but might Class A might not work so well with some other types of speaker).  But really I'm not convinced that there is any useful rule about which bit is the most important - they all have their part to play.  I have found that it is easier to get a good preamp/amp than a good speaker.

Is there anyone out there that I haven't upset :-) ?

Your change of source from CDX to HDX to NDX is for the most part a horizontal move, maybe that's why you did not hear much of a difference?

Innocent Bystander posted:

This is the thread to get it off your chest, 

Don't tempt me!

HH -A source first or balanced approach to system building may not suggest the entry Uniti and Sopras but I would think that as the Focal is a very efficient speaker and Naim wish to showcase the capability of their new product it makes absolute sense.  

Regards,

Lindsay

"Your change of source from CDX to HDX to NDX is for the most part a horizontal move, maybe that's why you did not hear much of a difference?"

The CDX had an XPS - the others didn't, and my first CD player was an early Phillips.  

And before the CDX I had a Naim CD of some sort - a CD3 or 3.5 IIRC

Emre posted:

Nobody said anything about 272, in the source first contex, are you all ignoring me?

Yes 

Innocent Bystander posted:

Hungryhalibut posted:

Unitis and Sopras are Naim's and Focal's new products, so they are put together for marketing rather than system building logic. If anyone had to stump up £9,000 of their own money, would the best sound be delivered by a £3,000 Uniti and a £6,000 Sopra? No, it would not, and there are far better ways to divvy up the budget. That's why I say they'd be an idiot. If anyone has a problem with that view, send an email to Naim and ask them, and I bet nobody there would recommend spending your money in that way.

If I had £9k to build a system from scratch I'd buy a Mac Mini,   Audirvana & Hugo for about £2.5k, Bryston amp for £2.5k econdhand (£5k if new) PMC EB1 speakers for £4k secondhand (they'd be £8-9k new if still available now). It will sound very good indeed.

Last year I sold my SU/PMC system and spent £9,000 on a new one. The 272/250 cost just under £7,000 and the SL2s were just over £2,000, and it's a great system, which of course I would say. IB's suggestion would I'm sure be very fine too, I'm sure. Of course, bringing in preloved items rather moves the goalposts. If we look specifically at new stuff, I'd take a 272/250 and a pair of £2,000 speakers over a Uniti and some £6,000 speakers.

Emre posted:

Nobody said anything about 272, in the source first contex, are you all ignoring me?

Funny you should say that - I have heard a 272/555psu/Nap 300/Sopra 3.   I thought it sounded rather good but of course only a fool would consider the possibility of pairing a combined one box streamer/pre amp with a £5.5k PSU, £6k power amp and £14k speakers

İ am that fool add 1800£ speaker cables, powerlines etc and you put good prices

minus the speakers but have eyes on the focal sopra 2! 

Emre posted:

Nobody said anything about 272, in the source first contex, are you all ignoring me?

Of course they are, it pokes a big hole in the "Source First" argument!

Match speakers to room first actually find the speakers you like in terms of sound signature. As I have written here many times I really dislike the Focal sound signature. It is  getting better on the new models, but still they would never with the current models end up in my system! Many years ago I decide to build an active system, and at that time financially amps, speakers and crossovers became the most expensive part of my system. Today I think my speakers and Snaxo in terms of cost matches my Ndac plus ps555 and 252. A while back I compared my first generation Bluesound with my at that time alive ns01. The ns01 won but the Node was close but the price difference between the 2 is big, especially because I have an Chord SA digital cable on the ns01.     

Hungryhalibut posted:

The Unitis and Sopras are Naim's and Focal's new products, so they are put together for marketing rather than system building logic. If anyone had to stump up £9,000 of their own money, would the best sound be delivered by a £3,000 Uniti and a £6,000 Sopra? No, it would not, and there are far better ways to divvy up the budget. That's why I say they'd be an idiot. If anyone has a problem with that view, send an email to Naim and ask them, and I bet nobody there would recommend spending your money in that way.

But to say if source first is better or worse solution you need to compare like systems as far as possible.

I suppose (to my thinking) you would need to compare (as a simple example and using B&W for speakers which might not suit many people but have suitable price speakers I can think of off top of my head) a UnitiQute driving B&W 805d to a 272/200 setup driving a pair of 685 speakers.

At the same time you also need to ensure that the more expensive speakers aren't an unreasonably difficult load for the less expensive power amp.

One thing I have concluded from these forums (not thinking this thread) is that some people don't really know what deep bass is, never hearing it with their systems, and some people - possibly the same ones - when they hear a full range system that they aren't used to complain it has too much bass. That of course is my subjective view, not being present with the said people, but based on the statements made and the speakers they use, for example declaring that since changing their amp they get really good, deep bass - when the speakers might roll off sharply below, say, 70Hz and used well away from walls so no boundary effect. (I'm not picking out anyone particular here, but numbers of posts over time). it is not saying they don't truly believe their own impression, but that their impression is possibly based on something they've been conditioned to.

The big problem is that getting deep bass to sound good rather than woolly tends to cost, making speakers that do it well expensive. So a system that does low bass well tends to mean relatively expensive compared to something doing sounding exactly the same from mid-bass upwards, so for the same quality of system if the balance of cost shifts more heavily to the speaker end.

Also our brains are really good at filling in missing information.  A kettle drum played on a cheap system (even a tranny) is recognisably a kettle drum.  You know it has a lot of bass, and fill it in, to an extent, so it sounds OK.  Listen to a real kettle drum (or even one played back through a suitable system) and you hear what you have missed. 

Beachcomber posted:

Also our brains are really good at filling in missing information.  A kettle drum played on a cheap system (even a tranny) is recognisably a kettle drum.  You know it has a lot of bass, and fill it in, to an extent, so it sounds OK.  Listen to a real kettle drum (or even one played back through a suitable system) and you hear what you have missed. 

And because mucical instruments (other than some synthesiser sounds) have harmonics, we can hear the bass guitar notes even through, say,  2 inch speaker of a small cheap pocket  radio speaker - but we don't hear the bass fundamentals, or feel them,  and that to me is not acceptable from my hifi system