Speakers again !?

gary yeowell posted:

Loki, my reply was slightly tongue in cheek. I didn't need to be informed, just people make such a fuss about how low Ob's go, and quite frankly low means nothing without control. That is where Kans show them a clean set of heels along with many others where too much is lost in an effort to play the lowest note on a church organ, which would account for exactly 0% of my listening. Don't get me wrong, i'm a fan of Shahinian in general, but they trade articulacy for extension, but at least they are tuneful.

The bulge in your cheek was clear Gary, mine clearly not so manifest, sadly. I've been a distant but inexperienced admirer of Shahinian's Maverick designs, so your comments are interesting to me. However, I would love to be able to create the lowest organ note as well as the highest and clearest. So where can we find the elusive blend of extension, articulation and tunefulness for which we so earnestly yearn and search?

Loki, the closest i've come to that elusive blend was my SL2s in a small room.

dayjay posted:

If its only your foot that's tapping you need to turn it up.  You don't show your emotion tapping your feet!

With respect, you don't know how a Norse god shows his emotion.  The  feet are only the beginning. For further proof check out the opening scenes of Pulp Fiction

gary yeowell posted:

Loki, the closest i've come to that elusive blend was my SL2s in a small room.

When I can track down a clean set of SL2s I shall try to replicate your envious experience, although this hall of music is not of small proportions.

Loki posted:

gary yeowell posted:

Loki, the closest i've come to that elusive blend was my SL2s in a small room.

When I can track down a clean set of SL2s I shall try to replicate your envious experience, although this hall of music is not of small proportions.

Ah, mine was of miniscule proportions where they worked best.

The halls of Valhalla are not known for their references to Lilliput.

Loki posted:

Foot tapping is the ultimate accolade for all good hifi: the sine qua non which signals an emotional reaction to the music  so intense that it is physically manifest, made possible only by the finest components; a mark of electronic wizardry creating a verisimilitudinous performance to rival the live experience. If you haven't experienced the involuntary tactile reaction to well-reproduced music, then you have simply listened to hifi rather than had an emotive reaction born of intense and powerfully overflowing feelings. It is the difference between an organic and mechanical reaction. It is the difference between a Naim system and pretty much any other. It is at the heart of PRAT, the DNA of music.

Well, as I said, I have had involuntary foot-tapping induced many a time throughout a variety of systems - and live performances - but not all music, which includes live. But I do not crave foot tapping, I crave enjoyable fulfilling music even if it causes my feet to tap. But the foot tapping depends on the music, not how it is reproduced.

Innocent Bystander posted:

Well, as I said, I have had involuntary foot-tapping induced many a time throughout a variety of systems - and live performances - but not all music, which includes live. But I do not crave foot tapping, I crave enjoyable fulfilling music even if it causes my feet to tap. But the foot tapping depends on the music, not how it is reproduced.

Craving foot tapping may well indicate an unwholesome fetish, and it in itself is not the goal, but a sign that things are going well aurally. As for the music/ quality of reproduction equation, are you postulating degrees of foot-tapping, and if so, could you provide a scale by which we can measure the foot-tapping / music calibre  correlative?

Loki posted:

Innocent Bystander posted:

Well, as I said, I have had involuntary foot-tapping induced many a time throughout a variety of systems - and live performances - but not all music, which includes live. But I do not crave foot tapping, I crave enjoyable fulfilling music even if it causes my feet to tap. But the foot tapping depends on the music, not how it is reproduced.

Craving foot tapping may well indicate an unwholesome fetish, and it in itself is not the goal, but a sign that things are going well aurally. As for the music/ quality of reproduction equation, are you postulating degrees of foot-tapping, and if so, could you provide a scale by which we can measure the foot-tapping / music calibre  correlative?

I merely queried whatbthe fixation is with foot tapping, which does sometimes seem to come across as a goal on these forums, but tomme is a simple involuntary reaction tomrhythmic music - I did not in any way suggest a degree of foot-tappingness... I thought it was you who suggested it was a measure of the system "made possible by only the finest components"...

al9315 posted:

HH - Thanks very much for thoughtful reply !

Al

Hi i have just tried some 80's BW 1800 AND THEY ARE WONDERFUL..

Innocent Bystander posted:

Loki posted:

Innocent Bystander posted:

Well, as I said, I have had involuntary foot-tapping induced many a time throughout a variety of systems - and live performances - but not all music, which includes live. But I do not crave foot tapping, I crave enjoyable fulfilling music even if it causes my feet to tap. But the foot tapping depends on the music, not how it is reproduced.

Craving foot tapping may well indicate an unwholesome fetish, and it in itself is not the goal, but a sign that things are going well aurally. As for the music/ quality of reproduction equation, are you postulating degrees of foot-tapping, and if so, could you provide a scale by which we can measure the foot-tapping / music calibre  correlative?

I merely queried whatbthe fixation is with foot tapping, which does sometimes seem to come across as a goal on these forums, but tomme is a simple involuntary reaction tomrhythmic music - I did not in any way suggest a degree of foot-tappingness... I thought it was you who suggested it was a measure of the system "made possible by only the finest components"...

That F-T is a measure, I concur, but I was not implying that theire were degrees of reaction, simply F-T is a sufficient measure in itself. I also agree that it should not be the goal, per se, although as a correlative to enjoying music it may well be symptomatic of achieving audio nirvana. For you it would appear that fulfilling music may or may not induce F-T. Are the test conditions the same in each sample?

Loki posted:

That F-T is a measure, I concur, but I was not implying that theire were degrees of reaction, simply F-T is a sufficient measure in itself. I also agree that it should not be the goal, per se, although as a correlative to enjoying music it may well be symptomatic of achieving audio nirvana. For you it would appear that fulfilling music may or may not induce F-T. Are the test conditions the same in each sample?

Test conditions are different in every different system and with every different person... In this particular thread it was raised in relation to speakers presenting the music, though in other threads it is triggered by other considerations, so often - as your own suggestion - being considered to be one (of several) important test of a good system. I contrast that with my own measure of a system, which is does it sound good, where "good" is a combination of different things, some more nebulous than others: sounding 'right'=like live or very close, and enjoyable assuming I like the music, immersing/involving etc etc., but in which foot tapping does not feature at all because that to me is a function of the particular music.

Innocent Bystander posted:

Test conditions are different in every different system and with every different person... In this particular thread it was raised in relation to speakers presenting the music, though in other threads it is triggered by other considerations, so often - as your own suggestion - being considered to be one (of several) important test of a good system. I contrast that with my own measure of a system, which is does it sound good, where "good" is a combination of different things, some more nebulous than others: sounding 'right'=like live or very close, and enjoyable assuming I like the music, immersing/involving etc etc., but in which foot tapping does not feature at all because that to me is a function of the particular music.

Agreed, it is a very subjective business this hobby of ours. But what if we extended the F-T analogy to dancing, I.e. A fully immersive physical reaction to the music? Does the system get us out of our seats? And if so, is it a reliable measure of enjoyment? And, if so, which speakers have that boogie factor in a synergistic system?

You're asking the wrong person because I've never been into dancing! But again, I would suggest that it is the music that might induce that, and depending on the style the volume - play heavy rock loud on anything half-decent sounding and the temptation to headbang is there, though it is not something I've done since the very early 70s, even at many a live gig where others have been, prefering to listen.

another part of my measure of 'good' is do I find it satisfying. And for me, any system where the bass that should be there is curtailed struggles to be satisfying because that part of the music is important to me as well as hearing the timbre of instruments, texture of vocals, clarity of cymbals and everything else that makes up the music all rolled into one.  

To put this in context in terms of speakers, when I was looking for new speakers early this year I auditioned a pair of B&W 802Ds, comparing with my old IMFs. The 802s sounded very nice indeed, but I was not left feeling satisfied - best I can describe is that they did everything very well, but simply weren't involving, almost as if too polite to let go and sing. When I bought my first pair of non-DIY speakers 40 years or so ago, lesser IMFs (TLS50s), I auditioned a lot of speakers, and only found 2 to be at all satisfying, and the IMFs best. THat group included the Gale chrome-ended models mentioned elsewhere in this thread, but I rejected them very quickly, IIRC finding them too 'thin' sounding (they stuck in memory because of unusual appearance). And when later my brother-in-law 'inherited' the TLs50s, displacing his IBLs, his system went from unsatisfying to satisfying. But, as we all recognise, all our tastes differ, including what makes a system satisfying.

Loki posted:

Innocent Bystander posted:

Not sure what the fixation is with foot tapping (common right across the forums): if the music's got a distinct beat, my foot tends to keep,time, if not it doesn't. Nothing to do with the system, and more to the point nothing I've ever particularly had a longing for my foot to do!

Foot tapping is the ultimate accolade for all good hifi: the sine qua non which signals an emotional reaction to the music  so intense that it is physically manifest, made possible only by the finest components; a mark of electronic wizardry creating a verisimilitudinous performance to rival the live experience. If you haven't experienced the involuntary tactile reaction to well-reproduced music, then you have simply listened to hifi rather than had an emotive reaction born of intense and powerfully overflowing feelings. It is the difference between an organic and mechanical reaction. It is the difference between a Naim system and pretty much any other. It is at the heart of PRAT, the DNA of music.

err...what he said. I think.

If you really want to change, I'd also suggest SBLs, but maybe listen to a pair of Neat Motive 2s if you can. They're cracking little speakers, tolerate being fairly close to the rear wall, and are significantly better than Motive 1s.

I would at least try and get a home audition of the Neat Motive SX2 floorstanders. They are very musical and certainly capable of inducing foottapping

How about the Royd Troubadour - an update of the classic Minstrel ?

Hungryhalibut posted:

Whatever you decide, you'd be very welcome, and I'm always around at the moment. If you want, put your mail temporarily in your profile. 

Well, Al is braving a visit to sunny Emsworth tomorrow and it will be interesting what he makes of my little system. I've been playing some albums that I used to play a lot when I had an LP12 and Kans, back in the mid 90s before moving to SBLs. That seems like a lifetime ago, before we had children and I was still in my early thirties. I only had a 82/250 back then, not the 135s which I always wanted but never managed to get. If Al thinks my system is a pile of crap, at least he'll be happy with the Kans, which has got to be a good thing. 

Nigel, I'm sure Al will like your 'little system', whilst different to my system it sounded very good to my ears. Familiarity tends to favour ones own system and I expect you feel likewise.

Al, if you want to hear some Kudos C20's which are sited quite close to a back wall you are welcome to hear mine. It would be an interesting comparison. I am in Poole so not too far away and it may prove useful. 

Richard

Kudos Super 20 is quite outstanding and works perfect 20-25 cm from the back wall depending on the wall. Sounded better then my Ovator 600 which surprised me. Not sure you will find anything beating them under €10.000  

X3 is a great choice of course for half the price. 

//Jonas

trickydickie posted:

Nigel, I'm sure Al will like your 'little system', whilst different to my system it sounded very good to my ears. Familiarity tends to favour ones own system and I expect you feel likewise.

Al, if you want to hear some Kudos C20's which are sited quite close to a back wall you are welcome to hear mine. It would be an interesting comparison. I am in Poole so not too far away and it may prove useful. 

Richard

 

Hi Trickie

I would absolutely LOVE to hear your speakers !!!!

Al

Hungryhalibut posted:

Well, Al is braving a visit to sunny Emsworth tomorrow and it will be interesting what he makes of my little system. I've been playing some albums that I used to play a lot when I had an LP12 and Kans, back in the mid 90s before moving to SBLs. That seems like a lifetime ago, before we had children and I was still in my early thirties. I only had a 82/250 back then, not the 135s which I always wanted but never managed to get. If Al thinks my system is a pile of crap, at least he'll be happy with the Kans, which has got to be a good thing. 

Al, I had a thoroughly enjoyable morning - it's great to be able to pass a couple of hours with a fellow music enthusiast. And the Westbourne bakery does make seriously good bread.

I hope your search is successful, which may of course mean not changing at all. Interestingly, the chap who owned my SL2s before me changed to S20s, so they have got to be seriously good. 

Second unrequested comment in the morning.

Many years ago I had Kan Is, with a Nait (I also had Kan IIs, and in retrospect I much preferred Is). They sounded wonderful but tiny. I took them to a guy who had a few BIG amps and I discovered that the Kans, with a big engine behind, became big too. So, my advice is:

a) you love the Kans – big a more conventional, powerful, bass-rich amp.

b) you love the 135s – buy a pair of SBLs.

Best

M