Speakers again !?

dave marshall posted:

The Strat (Fender) posted:

Guys,

The speaker thing for me is probably going to be resolved by early next year. 

What do you guys consider to be near to the rear wall?

Regards,

Lindsay

Lindsay,

I haven't been following this thread especially, but if you're looking to change your speakers next year, abandon this rear wall malarkey ................ give in ....................... and treat yourself to that pair of MF 9's you've lusted after for so long now. 

Dave - if only. Trouble is given my  listening position MF9/SL 10s Iwould be somewhat looking down on me!!

Regards,

Lindsay

ChrisSU posted:

Simon-in-Suffolk posted:

Its funny, I have ATC 19s, but am wanting to reorganise my listening area now it appears I can't easily demo active ATCs I was earlier considering, I have reconsidered and so would like to try smaller less obtrusive speakers and see if they still do the magic for me.. ... I am considering the Russel K50, Neat SX2 and the Neat Iota Alpha...  the last speakers intrigue me... and where there are no obvious room resonances and volumes are not required too loud seem to be well considered by various voices I have in some regard...

I'll be interested in your findings too....on paper, my Kudos X2s are arguably the weak link in my system, and I sometimes consider what I could shortlist as an upgrade. The problem for me is that spending more cash on something 'better' inevitably means bigger, which I really don't want.

I mentioned this to my dealer recently, thinking that he might pounce on the opportunity to take some more of my hard earned cash, but to my surprise he just said 'No, I'd stick with what you've got.' I might have to raise the subject with him again at some point - especially as he's a Russel K dealer.... 

Well it transpires that there is a delay in the production of the Neat Iota Alphas because of some sort of issue over parts availability  - and so no models to audition currently from my local emporium. So its a pair of Russell K Red 100 i will audition first - I'm looking forward to it - they sound like my kind of speaker from their reviews...

S

Simon-in-Suffolk posted:

 

 

 

 

Well it transpires that there is a delay in the production of the Neat Iota Alphas because of some sort of issue over parts availability  - and so no models to audition currently from my local emporium. So its a pair of Russell K Red 100 i will audition first - I'm looking forward to it - they sound like my kind of speaker from their reviews...

S

I really enjoyed the Red 100s on the end of a relatively humble V1/100, they just seemed to do everything right, but I'm sure they have more to give with better amplification.

al9315 posted:

Sorry - I should have added - budget up to around £2k - and must be capable of being fairly close to back wall

I have been informed the Kudos ones should be okay

If you can find them you should be able to get a pair of Ovators s400 with a trade in against your current speakers

Simon-in-Suffolk posted:

James, Gary, yes I will report back.. if I am honest I'm itching to try the Alphas, but I fear I will be disappointed, but PCD they clearly work for you...Gary no I haven't heard Shahinisns.. although heard of them. Patk, interesting.. for me I think I want an ATC change. It's a bit like my cars.. I have had BMWs since the late 90s, but my next car almost certainly will be different.

S

Leaving the ATC fold? Such a shame. The SCM19s will be hard to follow. I would suggest SCM11s or 7s, but I guess that's just a smaller BMW. FWIW I have never heard a standmount speaker anywhere near as good as the SCM11 at its price point - obviously this is entirely subjective! 

I love the idea of the Neat Iota Alphas and the reviews have been great. But I would be concerned about how they work in a domestic setting. It seems to me that the material they sit on will have quite an effect on the sound, and that could get a bit frustrating.

Solid air - a shame? - possibly - and definitely not certain - but sometimes i get the itch to try something new and enjoy my music through a different 'lens' - sorry about the poor metaphor... but i have been in the ATC camp for more years than I care to remember having had SCM 12, 11 and earlier 19s... I briefly had an excursion into Harbeth and that went badly - but anyway  i'll try and make my mind up this time when I listen to the new speakers..

There must be something in the air at the moment .... This PMC stalwart is about to jump ship to ATC 19s .

Way back in the day I had active Isobariks. If you wanted bass control and extension they were awesome.

I fell on hard times and down sized to Kans. Wanted control and couldn't afford extension. They were pretty good, and as I recovered I upgraded the electronics way past where it made sense. The way Kans got you involved was addictive. I ended up running them with a Mitchell A Cotter front End & NAP 250 and then later dropped the 250 for a pair of Stax Class A monoblocks. Even had a pair of Krell KMA-100's doing crazy things for a few weeks. You could put anything in front of them and they just got better and better. I was a Linn/Naim dealer with access to lots of fun toys.

We were IMF dealers too, even stocked their multi box reference speaker, ( I forget the model, was about 50% up on the TLS 80), which had bass down to the Earth's core. There is something to be said for real bass.

I recently picked up a pair of N-sats for my partner and they really sound good, I could imagine an ex-Kan addict being sort of OK with them.

I also have been listening to a pristine pair of Kan II's on a circa 1992 35.5/HiCap/250. Great! Exciting! But... I must say, things have definitely moved on for the better. Yes they're great but man it's a hard ride at times. Pixies "Surfer Rosa" was pretty much unlistenable.

I have a pair of s400's. I know they wont work for you as they need a bit of space, but they also have that great tight bass, (and a lot more beside). You get accustomed to tight bass but there is nothing wrong with extension also. And there's nothing wrong a smoother top end, and some tonal balance, (and yes the S400's are not the last word in balance, I did say SOME).

The main point I would like to make is, that you can get hung up on that marvelous tight sound of a little two way system. The Kan's were the epitome of the little speaker that could. It might take you a while to adjust to a bit of low end. And some "ease" in the presentation which at first may be mistaken for a lack of life.  2000 quid should get you something that will outshine a 30 year old pair of Kans. Don't let nostalgia close your ears

Maybe you'll start to enjoy Pixie's albums more. So I'm with you on a modern speaker, but give yourself time to acclimatise.

gosh! what good advice!

enjoy

ken

Simon-in-Suffolk posted:

Well it transpires that there is a delay in the production of the Neat Iota Alphas because of some sort of issue over parts availability  - and so no models to audition currently from my local emporium. So its a pair of Russell K Red 100 i will audition first - I'm looking forward to it - they sound like my kind of speaker from their reviews...

Listening to the Russell K Red 100 on my home system - and I like  them immensely... they time so well - you hear decays and layers i couldn't hear on my ATCs - absolutely great fun - shame we are going out this evening- they go tunefully deep  as well - and on Something Solid stands with Pulsar Points sound brilliant and natural with no exaggeration anywhere.

Ok perhaps not quite as dynamic as the ATCs and perhaps an ever so ever so slight boxyness to them - but this is nothing compared to the goodness and enjoyment they are bringing. At the moment they feel like keepers - be interesting whether I feel the same in a weeks time

S

I heard these at said dealer, trying out some electronics not very successfully. I curiously tried out 50s and then 100s. Was on cdx2 and nait Xs 70 which were not cutting it using my neat speakers.

remember jimi hendrix sounding alive in the room, could really make out guitar licks and tone of voice. They do cut a hole and open up recording to you. I tried 50 at home and came close to buying. Super sounding. 

Still wonder how the bigger 100s would be but times are a little harder at the moment.

be interested how you get on, and with alphas!

Hi Mr Weasel - yes still enjoying them - have changed the Something Solid stands out  - I felt they bleached the lower mids out a bit with the 100s .. using a pair of my Russ Andrews Torlyte stands and they seem the best match so far - imaging enhanced and lower mids nicely fuller -  really enhancing vocals - listening to Sandy Denny right now - gorgeous  - This nicer sound from the Russ Andrews stands comes at the slight expense of ever so  slower bass - but i think I prefer it this way - as they time and tune the same way.

BTW I suspect i won't bother with the Alphas - they are still available to demo at my dealer - and he advises although they are good they are not really in the same league as the Russell Ks. I also listened to the new PMC 5 21s - and no they still don't do it for me for some reason the mids still sound strangely recessed on some tracks and the treble unnatural - i guess its a speaker / person interaction thing... .. shame as they look the part!!

Simon-in-Suffolk posted:

Hi Mr Weasel - yes still enjoying them - have changed the Something Solid stands out  - I felt they bleached the lower mids out a bit with the 100s .. using a pair of my Russ Andrews Torlyte stands and they seem the best match so far - imaging enhanced and lower mids nicely fuller -  really enhancing vocals - listening to Sandy Denny right now - gorgeous  - This nicer sound from the Russ Andrews stands comes at the slight expense of ever so  slower bass - but i think I prefer it this way - as they time and tune the same way.

BTW I suspect i won't bother with the Alphas - they are still available to demo at my dealer - and he advises although they are good they are not really in the same league as the Russell Ks. I also listened to the new PMC 5 21s - and no they still don't do it for me for some reason the mids still sound strangely recessed on some tracks and the treble unnatural - i guess its a speaker / person interaction thing... .. shame as they look the part!!

Hi Simon , could you try the Russell k with there own stands ?. A bit expensive at about £650.Have tried them with Partington stands and this was a good match,.Did find that the distance from the back wall affected the treble a fair bit so a bit of trial and error is needed, hope to to try them with their own stands myself  shortly . 

i have looked - i can see no mention of their stands anywhere - if £650 yes it does sound rather steep - i thought my Russ Andrews stands at half that price originally was bad enough - but they do seem to work rather well...

Thanks for the update Simon. Which Harbeths did you have and why didn't you get on with them ?

James

al9315 posted:

Sorry - I should have added - budget up to around £2k - and must be capable of being fairly close to back wall

I have been informed the Kudos ones should be okay

The Kudos seekers are generally ported so I am not sure they will give of their best in close proximity to a wall.

steve95775 posted:

Way back in the day I had active Isobariks. If you wanted bass control and extension they were awesome.

I fell on hard times and down sized to Kans. Wanted control and couldn't afford extension. They were pretty good, and as I recovered I upgraded the electronics way past where it made sense. The way Kans got you involved was addictive. I ended up running them with a Mitchell A Cotter front End & NAP 250 and then later dropped the 250 for a pair of Stax Class A monoblocks. Even had a pair of Krell KMA-100's doing crazy things for a few weeks. You could put anything in front of them and they just got better and better. I was a Linn/Naim dealer with access to lots of fun toys.

We were IMF dealers too, even stocked their multi box reference speaker, ( I forget the model, was about 50% up on the TLS 80), which had bass down to the Earth's core. There is something to be said for real bass.

I recently picked up a pair of N-sats for my partner and they really sound good, I could imagine an ex-Kan addict being sort of OK with them.

I also have been listening to a pristine pair of Kan II's on a circa 1992 35.5/HiCap/250. Great! Exciting! But... I must say, things have definitely moved on for the better. Yes they're great but man it's a hard ride at times. Pixies "Surfer Rosa" was pretty much unlistenable.

I have a pair of s400's. I know they wont work for you as they need a bit of space, but they also have that great tight bass, (and a lot more beside). You get accustomed to tight bass but there is nothing wrong with extension also. And there's nothing wrong a smoother top end, and some tonal balance, (and yes the S400's are not the last word in balance, I did say SOME).

The main point I would like to make is, that you can get hung up on that marvelous tight sound of a little two way system. The Kan's were the epitome of the little speaker that could. It might take you a while to adjust to a bit of low end. And some "ease" in the presentation which at first may be mistaken for a lack of life.  2000 quid should get you something that will outshine a 30 year old pair of Kans. Don't let nostalgia close your ears

Maybe you'll start to enjoy Pixie's albums more. So I'm with you on a modern speaker, but give yourself time to acclimatise.

I also have been listening to a pristine pair of Kan II's on a circa 1992 35.5/HiCap/250. Great! Exciting! But... I must say, things have definitely moved on for the better. Yes they're great but man it's a hard ride at times. Pixies "Surfer Rosa" was pretty much unlistenable.

Hi Steve 

I had a similar set up for a few years with what at the time was a high spec LP12 - never got full resolution on dense recordings, like opera, but always highly enjoyable; never found anything unlistenable. Your experience made me wonder what the source was you were using in terms of medium and device?

james n posted:

Thanks for the update Simon. Which Harbeths did you have and why didn't you get on with them ?

 

James, it was the C7 ES-3.. I thought they sounded really good initially - silky smooth upper mid and treble - but I should have demo'd for longer - the bass was poor. I couldn't hear bass lines well - it  lacked definition compared to what i was used to and tended to single note  - and the dynamics were a little flat. I tried in several different positions - but to no avail - I tried to ignore the deficiencies - but that made it worse - in the end i had to quickly sell them on.. i suspect the design of the thin wall case of the speakers was not helping.. you could really feel them vibrate.

Simon-in-Suffolk posted:

i have looked - i can see no mention of their stands anywhere - if £650 yes it does sound rather steep - i thought my Russ Andrews stands at half that price originally was bad enough - but they do seem to work rather well...

Yes, there is no mention on the website but i think they do make stands for the speakers . They could be a badged other make . They seems to be pictures on the Facebook page with badged stands and some dealers advertise stands hence the price.

Ah i see - thanks Simon. I'll be interested to see if the 100's are keepers for you. Russell K seems to be very well regarded. 

James

" Bluedog posted:

I had a similar set up for a few years with what at the time was a high spec LP12 - never got full resolution on dense recordings, like opera, but always highly enjoyable; never found anything unlistenable. Your experience made me wonder what the source was you were using in terms of medium and device?

The Kan system I heard recently was good, front end was a LP12/Ittok/Karma. The Karma had been refurbished/swapped via Linn, not sure when. I've set up many LP12's, (that was why I was there), so pretty sure it was all on song. The 32.5/HiCap/250 looked fine, I think the capacitors had been refurbished, but not via Naim, we have a good local guy. The Kan II's were on Linn stands all done as believe it or not, Ivor  had shown me. 

I had spent the evening cleaning contacts, checking connections, tweeking speaker spikes et al. We had a UK pressing of "Surfer Rosa". Very Catholic system which is extraordinarily good...brought back memories of many a dawn rising when you looked at each other and said "just one more track". But..., honestly, not in the league of where I am now. Although I realize that's contentious because what I have now is so different.

There are a couple of things going on I feel. Whilst I love my 80's & 90's New Wave/Grunge/Alternative/Indie bands, I am often disappointed with the mastering standards of the day. There seemed to be a collective madness in recording studios as they went for that "garage" sound. The madness hasn't died out yet unfortunately. And whilst I am pretty game musically, and prepared to overlook a bit of fuzz if the music has energy and something to say, there comes a point where I have to give up. Great systems help mitigate the crappy mastering but there is only so much you can do. I just felt Pixies deserved more and swapped the record. Always a sign to me that things aren't right when you can't wait to get the record off the platter.

And the whole presentation of a modern Naim system is very, very different. You're not going to transition easily if you are attuned to what was a great 30 year old system, but if you persevere you discover that actually those guys in Sailsbury, (or Glasgow or wherever), have in many areas really improved things. Markedly.

I think I'm with you on resolution, the LP12/Ittok/Karma was great but lacked a bit of that final clarity. Sure there was the Ekos, a big step up, and the Troika again got more out of the groove. As a dealer it was easy, (and instructive), to just plug in something from the shop and see what happens. We used to live and breathe music, and trialing new/different gear was a given. Whilst I stayed pretty much Flat Earth I did occasionally stray. The Mitchell A Cotter step up transformer into Naim MM boards was in my view definitely better than the Naim MC boards at the time, and if you plugged a Koetsu in at the front there were lessons to be learnt as to how much the Karma was missing, (although the Koetsu Rosewood was seriously flawed in other areas). Dropping the Naim 32.5/HiCap for the full Cotter font end was a revelation. My old boss had exposed me to "The Witch's Chorus" from Verdi's McBeth, (bastard), and I had a habit of using this track to sort out resolution. It's also what got me to plonk down for the Active Isobariks. That record cost me tens of thousands. (I'm in Perth Australia and man did we pay for good English hifi back then, even at staff prices).

The overall musicality of my old Kan system was what grabbed me. I was and always will be a PRAT. Today I have mixed feelings about where the state of the art is. To be honest I don't get the access I once had, so my hifi horizons are severely limited.  And maybe I'm a bit less uptight as to where it's built. But musically my reference is very much enhanced on the old days.  I do get out to hear live music a lot more, 2-3 nights a week. Very varied tastes and genre, but so fortunately for me  I get exposed to a lot of largely unamplified/lightly augmented jazz at one of the best Jazz clubs on the planet, (seriously). And whilst I would never confuse a hifi with a jazz club, I know what gives me the most pleasure.

But with what I have heard recently, streaming a well recorded/mastered album , (which was always in the digital realm), in the resolution it was in the studio, via a good streamer gets me further in my living room than I have ever been before, in terms of "it's right there in front of you and just give me more of this heaven". Sure a classic album, that was well crafted, all analogue from microphone to disc pressing, is mostly better served up on a LP12. And vinyl can bring me to tears. But I have to say, the streamer on a good day does it better.

I do believe in source first. And the first step is whatever the lovely music industry cares to sell you. Most CD rips onto my server are fair to middling. Some are dire.  Fortunately I have several hundred HD downloads. When they're good, they're really great. There are some stinkers. Sadly my records have gone to a better place, (my house deposit), but I feel no inclination to get back into a turntable, even though I know there will be a lot of albums that this would yield the better outcome musically.

I was sold on streaming when my dealer played the Statements with NDX combination. It showed me it could be sublime.  A lowly 172/200 and a pair of S400's are a significantly lower level. To my mind about where a "real" set up begins. But it sounds great and those long nights where you can't stop playing music, (and grinning your face off), are back.

Steve

many of us have been on similar journeys but I find myself in a slightly different place with a modern high end LP12 and the Naim kit I aspired to owning 20 years ago. The unlistenable LPs I have are mainly carelessly digitally remastered reissues of some classic jazz albums. 

Hi Bluedog,

I think we could both write tomes on the crimes committed in the mastering of our albums. What amazes me most is that great sounding albums are all around, often cited as iconic, easy enough for anyone interested to have a listen, (ie a recording engineer/producer/aspiring band), and still lessons are not learnt. A great sounding album I think sounds better than an indifferent one even on a modest system, so I don't buy into "we've compressed it and equalized it for AM so it sells" justification. I put a lot of blame on deaf engineers and/or in the lazy execution of their trade. But I'm a bit biased so who knows the real reason.

And whilst a lot of albums are not chasing fidelity to the original sound of unamplified instruments, a lot of jazz ones do. I too have been disappointed by digital remastering, not so much now but in the early days of CD it could really get you down. And those bloody awful Digital Remaster vinyls re-issues as everyone stampeded to embrace the digital domain, yes I remember the pain.

I was listening on friend's active Isobariks yesterday to some superlative records, Patrica Barber's 1994 Café Blue,  and Diana Krall's 2015 Wildflower. He has a very tidy circa 1990 LP12/Ekos bought secondhand for $3000 AUD, and it sounds great.  He's mucking around with Chord interconnects and various mats, non Linn cartridges, but it doesn't matter the music was to die for. Using an Klimax as a pre, with an outboard non Linn phono stage too. Go figure. Both discs are modern era so digital in the studio but all analogue in that groove. And my what a groove.

My little journey now is only the beginning. I'm plotting to get some serious amplification, maybe 272/Some power supply insert x thousands of dollars/250, to see what the s400s can actually do. I have dreams of active but it looks like Naim are back pedalling a little on this. Maybe by the time I upgrade Naim will have a 372. And maybe then I'll discover i'm a little off piste with my appreciation of streaming?

I'm actually uneducated on what speakers are actually great right now. I sprung for the Ovators purely as an orientation exercise. Auditioning $8000 territory speakers here is hard. I heard them with a 172/200 combo, playing some music I liked. Not at home though. Thought what the hell and so I took a punt. Yes I think the Ovators are great, but honestly, compared to what? I had some crappy Jamo's prior so anything would be an upgrade.

Given that I am 57 and still go to rock concerts my ears are probably fried anyway and god knows if I can hear beyond 3000 Hz. But yes the music still grabs me, and at the heart of it all, that's all we can be driven by.

Ive been using the Russell K 100,s for nearly 11 months now ...and no regrets at all (had Naim speakers previously) I have also used them on three different types of stands and have found them to NOT be stand sensitive at all!!

By the way, I tried the vinyl covered speakers (demo pair) but bought the piano black ones ...they look stunning and (to my ears) sound (slightly) better than the vinyl ones

I have not tried the RK stands (just too expensive and a bit ugly) but got good results on Focal stands and now have good results on a used pair of Linn stands (sorry not sure which ones but could post a picture)

Ahh just found my current stands ... they look like the Linn Akurate 212 stands if you google that

I had mine sprayed silver to colour match my Naim Fraim and if you half fill them (I used sand) they make the perfect base for RK100 speakers at 1/3 the price of original stands