Harsh Treble, advise appreciated

Bing,

As much as I love Dynaudio speakers I think the Confidence are simply too much for the SN.   I presume you have tried repositioning but given the problem didn't exist with your previous speakers I doubt that will help.  Can you borrow a NAP 282/250 to see if that would help. 

Regards,

Lindsay

Have you tried the SN2 without the HCDR? Are all the boxes plugged directly into a wall socket or do you use an extension block? 

You're overspeakered as Lindsay advices try 282/250.

I was in Milan yesterday at the show , NDX/XPS sounded pretty harsh on Vivid B1 think amp (non -Naim) was not up to the job.

try pre+power...this speakers are hungry

It's pretty much a constant theme Dynas that they require strong articulate amplification and room if they're not to sound fierce.  Even my Contour 1.8s really needed a 282/250 to get them going.   Dyna themselves have recently been demonstrating the latest Contours with a 252/300 and the Confidence is a further step up.  

Any chance of borrowing some Naim speaker cables, either NAC A5's or Super Lumia?  (or both).  They may be a more controlled match for your Supernait driving the Confidende's 4 ohm load. 

I have no experience of their new reflection minimising DDC technology, so I won't muddy the water by implicating that in any way,  but as I said, look closely at the speaker cable.

I hope the solution finds you soon    ...but I can't help feeling that what Strat says above may have a lot to do with your problem.

Try putting back the rake angles a bit on the speakers, just so the tweeters are just offline to the ears up somewhat.

RJ -  it certainly wouldn't do any harm to try a change of wire but I've had Chord Odyssey on my Dynas all along and when compared with Naca if anything the Chord was more relaxed - marginally. 

Everyone always assumes that square sided speakers always need to be square perpendicular to the floor - why ?    People are happy to experiment with the positioning of speakers regarding the angle of direct radiation - a bit outside , a bit inside to determine the listening apex point, but seem more reluctant to try positioning of other planes.

Can you get your speakers to fire accross a different side of the room?

I could try the NAP 282/250 combo but I believe it is 85 watts output power. The irony is that I swapped my Krell which was a real powerhouse for my SN2.

The Super Lumia cables are not within my budget range, I can try the NAC A5's. I do have all equipment plugged into a Van Den Hull Mainsstream block but I have one spare socket so I will try it. I will change the rake and disconnect the DR, but what is your reasoning?

Anyway, thanks so far, probably I am indeed overspeakered/underpowered............

Bing Teng posted:

Van Den Hull Mainsstream block

I've just googled this. The phrase 'silver-coated' came up. I'd buy a completely bog standard, cheap as chips mains distribution block before I did anything else. If that is good, then I'd buy a WireWorld Matrix.

Chris

My initial reaction is that the Confidences are way too much speaker for the amp. However, there are two things I dislike in your system. One is free to test.

1. Play something harsh on your CD player. UNPLUG your lingo (not enough to switch off). Is it better? If you have other items running with switched mode power supplies, unplug them too. Does it get better? If so, then plug all these into a filtered block. Leave the Naim unfiltered for best sound.

2. Signature cable, just not a fan.

That's all I can think of other than the speakers.

Frank.

Bing Teng,

Do I correctly understand that the treble harshness was introduced when you changed the Sonus Faber speakers for the Dynaudio?  Was it only speakers which changed, and nothing else in your system?  If you audition the Dynaudios before purchase (and they presumably exhibited no harsh treble on less-than-pristene-recordings), what were circumstances of the audition?  The setup of the speaker-to-floor interface is proper?  

Assuming no change to your system (components, rack, power, cable dressing, etc) it could simply be that the Dynaudios have an "unforgiving treble response" (I have no experience with these speakers - simply speculating).   If you walk around the room, or listen from a different room, is the harshness still audible?  This might be resolved by following previous suggestions to re-aim the speakers so the tweeter axis does not point at or near your listening position.

Perhaps your speaker cables worked with your SN2 and SF speakers, but are a poor choice for the Dynaudios?  Perhaps you could borrow some NACA5 cables from your dealer.

Charlie

PS:  I note that Frank Abela offers good suggestions, and does not seem concerned about your speakers (he is surely familiar with them).

The 250 DR may only be rated at 85 but trust me it's got power

Like Christopher and Frank said, try without the VdH block and unplug any smps. Just found an image of the frequency response of the Dynaudios and they're nice and flat so any harshness must be being caused by something else. Start with the mains.

Finkfan posted:

Like Christopher and Frank said, try without the VdH block and unplug any smps. Just found an image of the frequency response of the Dynaudios and they're nice and flat so any harshness must be being caused by something else. Start with the mains.

That I don't neccessarily follow.. harshness is quality, not quantity, a frequency response image won't determine  harshness... where as distortion vs frequency image will..also such images will vary from room to room.

One consideration is run in... have the speakers bedded in..some times tweeters don't sound their best until after a couple hundred hours.. failing that I would go with room reflections causing peaks and troughs perhaps accentuating treble making it appear harsh.. changing positions of speakers would show this up if this was the case.

TOBYJUG posted:

Everyone always assumes that square sided speakers always need to be square perpendicular to the floor - why ?    People are happy to experiment with the positioning of speakers regarding the angle of direct radiation - a bit outside , a bit inside to determine the listening apex point, but seem more reluctant to try positioning of other planes.

Well yes and no. Mounting brackets for standmounts almost always allow for virtical as well as horozontal positioning. If they didn't then you wouldn't be able to adjust them for the correct sound in your seating position. So I don't think there is an assumption that all speakers should fire perpendicular.

The difference is that most floorstanders and stands are already inteligently angled by the manufacturer according to seated average ear height and off axis performance of the drive units. That is why some speakers do fire at degress other than 90 (PMC TwentyX), Shahinian etc. Plus there is the very obvious issue of stability when you change the centre of balance away from the design parameters.

I fully agree with both you and Simon though, that playing with positioning is the way to go first since it costs nothing and often yields surprises. While harshness or deadness is usally obvious from the room, I have experienced anomolies that defy expectation. In fact I am living in one: 7m curved floor to ceiling window with the curtains open all the time and yet not a hint of brightness. Never assume anything.

Bing Teng,

You presume you have a well-damped room. Maybe not properly damped for the harshness you're experiencing with your new speakers. Do you have dedicated upper frequency absorption for the offending treble at your primary and secondary reflection points? As others have suggested, varying your speaker position, toe-in, and listening position might be revealing, as well as moving about the room during listening. If you find locations in your room where the harshness decreases you may need to treat reflection points at your current speaker/listening position with high frequency absorption.

I also wouldn't discount a latent effect from behind as you have a wide opening and kitchens are full of hard surfaces that reflect high frequencies. Hard to imagine you don't have flutter echoes clapping your hands in the kitchen. Treble echoes from the kitchen behind could kill coherence at your listening position.

I'd also add that despite their name "silk dome" tweeters are not inherently more or less harsh than designs using alternative materials.

Frank F posted:

If there is no harshness when you use headphones it is also possible that there is a reflection in the room.  I had this problem and ended up using a tapestry (actually a carpet) on the wall behind the listening position - problem solved.  You try a blanket at zero cost to check.

FF

Frank - I'm all in favour of room treatments and they may well help with this issue, but headphones can never be a comparison particularly given that the OP didn't experience the problems with his previous speakers.  

Lindsay

A question has already been asked about auditioning - my assumption is that you weren't able to audition at home, but did you at a dealer? And was that with tbe same a plification? If so, and assuming it sounded fine there, that indicates the effect is due to the difference between your room and where you auditioned them, in which case that is where to look. If different amplification that of course might be relevant (in which case can you borrow what was used to demonstrate to see if that is indeed the answer?)

You say no noticeable flutter echo, which I take to be by clapping? Given your room size one thing to look at is early reflections, which though the effect is usually a muddying of the sound, they might have the effect you describe. To find the reflection points have someone hold a mirror flat with the wall each side between your listening position and the speakers, and move it around to find where you can see the front baffle reflected (or calculate geometrically). Ditto the ceiling (above a straight line between the listening position and the speakers). Those are the early reflection points. Find some way of propping a large cushion at eack/all of those points ((a stick can be used to wedge a cushion against the ceiling) and see if that improves things. If so then sound absorbent panels of some sort absorbing particularly in the treble could be your answer.

There is of course another possibility, namely that the speakers you have are different from the ones auditioned, whether due to manufacturing tolerences (seems unlikely from Dybaudio) or revision of the model. Unless faulty, but that would be unlikely to be both - but in case not obvious, maybe it is worth trying each speaker on its own to confirm both affected. And if different, swap them round to see if it is the soeaker or irs location.

Thanks again, 

Indeed some early reflections do occur. Treble does get better as I close my curtains. I also have a home studio with damping panels which I can try out in my listening room. I did indeed audition with my dealer who has a somewhat bigger room. The speakers are the same as I auditioned, it's his demo pair which I got at for a good price also because his wife liked my Sonus Fabers (High WAF in glossy pianogloss). 

Bing Teng posted:

Thanks again, 

 I did indeed audition with my dealer who has a somewhat bigger room. 

What source/amps did he use for the demo?

Bing Teng,

It appears there is a difference in treble output of the Dynaudios vs the SF.  Maybe this can be addressed by speaker orientation or room treatments.

The harshness is reported only on some recordings, but absent on others.  This suggests that the speakers are "unforgiving" at revealing an upstream source of harshness (a quality associated with "flat response").  Several thoughts come to mind:

   What was different about the room, placement, system, source, music in the demo?

   What can be learned from the recordings where harshness is present or not?  Is the harshness coming from poor quality recordings?  Or is it present on music which is highly complex, resulting in intermodulation distortion in the system somewhere?  

   Since harsh treble is not present in headphone listening, is this because the treble response differs between the hp and the speakers + room?  

  With a variety of music, try listening to determine if your perception of harshness results from the first arrival sound (of transients), or if it results from the reverberant sound (and steady response of sustained notes).  Listening off axis, and/or re-aiming the tweeters may help here. Note that room treatment affects the reverberant sound, having only a small (perceptual) effect on first-arrival transients.

   Since tissue over the tweeters (presumably reducing treble ouput) reduced harshness but excessively so, is there a way to use less tissue, or in some shape, to strike a balance?  This may not  be a long term solution, but might help the diagnosis.

   If it turns out the harshness is introduced by an interaction between the amp, cable, speakers - this could be perhaps confirmed by temporary substitution of different cables and or amp.

I think you were on the right track when you put tissue over the tweeters, disovering that a reduced treble output banished the perceived harshness - but excessively so.  As a loudspeaker designer, I have often had to carefully tailor the treble response in a compromise between "flat published response" and "forgiveness" to make more of my music collection enjoyable.

Charlie

If I could make a couple observations, The change from a SN2 to a 250DR will, in my opinion, change nothing, as far as the harshness is concerned, in other words if the SN2 is not enough amp for the speakers than neither is the 250DR. My recent home demo of both amps had a very similar house sound, meaning that one was not more harsh sounding, not that they didn't have a different presentation, but the house sound was definitely obvious, with neither amp sounding more smooth and one sounding more  harsh. 

Both amps are rated at 80 watts per channel, not 85 watts, with 400VA on transient power. I honestly believe they use the same torrid transformer.

The Dynaudio C2 needs a very powerful amp to sound of it's best. It is after all a $17,000.00 dollar speaker, so yes, the speakers do deserve better amplification, think 300 as a very bare minimum, with a 500 being the true starting point. I am not saying that a SN2, 250Dr, or a 300DR wont drive the speakers, it's just that it won't be ideal. I know the OP's speakers very well, and they honestly need extremely high quality (no problem there with any Naim amp), and very high output amps (somewhat of a problem). I happened to go from SF Venere 2.5 speakers to Dynaudio Excite X38 speakers. While the Dyn's have more explicit treble information, they are anything but harsh, whereas the SF were extremely smooth, to the point of being overly smooth. 

I don't know the speaker cables that you are using, but the Naca 5 in my system, SN2 with Hicap DR, Atlas interconnect sounding extremely natural with absolutely no harshness.

I would think that either the OP is so used to the sound of the SF speakers, that any speaker is going to sound harsh. And that a more powerful amp is needed, especially speakers with tweeters that are very informative. I can't imagine what this member would think of Kudos or Neat speakers if the Dyn's are too harsh sounding.