Changes made - Headamp needed

Greetings Steinar,

All amp-integral h/p amps are inevitably a compromise and an expensive headphone such as the Elear merits a dedicated h/p amplifier to achieve its potential. You will be amazed at how the sound-stage (apart from anything else) of a good pair of headphones can be transformed with a really good amplifier. A surprisingly 'out of the head' listening experience can be achieved with open-backed headphones and a good, dedicated amplifier. It's an irksome paradox that the more practical (with other people in the same room) closed-backed designs can inevitably never seem to deliver the size of soundstage available from open-backed designs.

Clearly synergy is very important as with amps and loudspeakers. I'm surprised that Naim have not updated the Headline. It sounds okay, but is ridiculously messy in terms of power-supplies; ideally requiring a a Supercap to give of its best - a combo which then becomes very expensive and not worth the asking price as far as I'm concerned.

I've owned a Headline with various power supplies and currently have a pair of Sennheiser HD800's and matching HDVA600 amplifier running in 'Balanced Mode'.

Just listen to as many options as you can within your budget.

Good luck.

John.

I  have a pair of Shure 535 in-ear phones.    If I had it to do over, I would get the 535LTD.   They do not need an amp, so they should work with your Naim headphone jacks,  and the sound is truly outstanding.      I used to use Etymotic ER4P with a P to S adapter.   They are quite a bit cheaper than the Shure and also sound great.    I have considered various headphones over the years but have never found a pair that I prefer to the 535.  

Thanks John/ Skip.

I know for sure how difficult this could be, all the options within phones and amps. I have already experienced Senn`s (HD700 not for me at all), Grado (to my taste, but a bit to forward) and Audio Technica (my current phones, M50 I think).

What I`m really after is which of Dac V1 and N272 will be best suited for the task. Yes, I know the difference between them, but as a headamp  In fact, I`m quite confused on how they part in compared to Headline also (agree with you John, HL and the need of a powersupply makes it messy).

S

As you've cited a DAC as part of the changes, one option to consider is Chord Hugo, or Hugo TT, both of which have headphone outputs. Many on these forums who have compared consider the Hugo to better the current Naim DACs, while I understand the headphone output is well renowned in headphone circles.

I've been able to borrow an Elear for a few weeks to try in my system (along with Senn HD800 S and my current HD650) and they have moved to the top of my want/upgrade list.  I find it an excellent headphone, both from a traditional hifi perspective, but also very musical and full of PRAT.  It is the closest headphone I've found to my Ovators.  It is incredibly easy to drive with the headline/NAPSC combo working very well.  I also tried it with the HL/HiCap DR combo but felt that unnecessary, whereas the Senns don't even seem to come alive without HCDR or even the SCDR.  I've been told by a Focal NA rep that the HL and DAC-V1 (among other brands) were used in the development of the Elear & Utopia.  The synergy seems obvious upon listening.

I don't think you could go wrong with the DAC-V1 or HL/NAPSC & the Elears.  My view of the headphone out on the 272, SN2 & other integrateds is that it is lacking in comparison and the real weak point in most of those designs.  

Also, be careful if you by a pre-owned 272 as the first couple of production runs when that model was first released have the headphone channels switched (I personally went through 3 units before I got one that had L/R properly sorted on the output).

Hello

just bought Elear and listening them with 272 and they sound very good, no better than good

Elear Is very easy to drive so 272 can do the job easly, please but please just go buy them

they are one of the best headphones you can buy and maybe the best for their price range, i am fan of fostex 900 and hd800 for different music types

Elear is a combo of these top headphones

after you got Elear look for a headphone amp

even mojo will be alright, or hugo

so dont buy 272 just as a headphone amp but it can be used with elear

if you have source creek or arcam amps are excellent 

but elear first!!!

Thank you all. This is great input to me, especially that Elear work so well. I knew they are an easy load.

I have considered N272 as an option since it has the inbuilt streamer (one box) and just by adding a NAP it turns into a complete machine (to a cost of course). I think I will search further towards Dac V1 or HL options, I`m a Naimee you know

Steinar, I can thoroughly recommend the 272, which sounds excellent and is easy to use. The Qute with V1 and Supernait has a huge amount of overlap (2 dacs, 3 preamps and 2 poweramp). I would get the 272 and a 200 or 250. See how good it is with the headphones, and if necessary you could add a headline and napsc. I have not tried headphones with mine but have some Sennheiser Momentums - I just need to find an adaptor so I can fit the 3.5mm plug into the 272. 

HH

After selling my sources and with the new Uniti range coming in I was stuck in a crossroad in some way. What`s my route forward?

Blended by new Uniti design and the wish not to go up the ladder again, I did all I could to hold N272 out of my sight  My dealer has been very clear all the way on this too, N272 collect`s my equipment needs in some way into one box ++. I also see the redundance in my plan. I did order Focal Elear today and after some disguession with myself, N272 is back as an option. Thank you for the confirmation.

There`s a two month delivery on the Elear so I have time to make the right decision.

S

Just to conclude on this question.

I have cleaned up and sold all of my gear, Qute and SN2 as well. In that way reduce redundancy to zero.

One option was the simpler Atom with an external poweramp, but again the redundancy and need of a headlamp will follow me. Then purchased an almost new 272/250DR which for me will be a simple, but very good music machine for the speakers, and also a very good headamp. XPS may be added later and will improve both needs.

Please God, make this a solution that will live at my place, for years 

S

Skip posted:

I  have a pair of Shure 535 in-ear phones.    If I had it to do over, I would get the 535LTD.   They do not need an amp, so they should work with your Naim headphone jacks,  and the sound is truly outstanding.      I used to use Etymotic ER4P with a P to S adapter.   They are quite a bit cheaper than the Shure and also sound great.    I have considered various headphones over the years but have never found a pair that I prefer to the 535.  

Skip

Have you had the opportunity to try the Shure 846? I currently own the 425 version and want to upgrade. Given the massive price difference between the 535 ltd and 846, and the fact the reason for the upgrade is to improve the bass, do you have any views you can share which may save me a bunch of cash?

Tim

Timmo1341 posted:

Skip posted:

I  have a pair of Shure 535 in-ear phones.    If I had it to do over, I would get the 535LTD.   They do not need an amp, so they should work with your Naim headphone jacks,  and the sound is truly outstanding.      I used to use Etymotic ER4P with a P to S adapter.   They are quite a bit cheaper than the Shure and also sound great.    I have considered various headphones over the years but have never found a pair that I prefer to the 535.  

Skip

Have you had the opportunity to try the Shure 846? I currently own the 425 version and want to upgrade. Given the massive price difference between the 535 ltd and 846, and the fact the reason for the upgrade is to improve the bass, do you have any views you can share which may save me a bunch of cash?

Tim

I used to use the ER4S phones (which were great) and now have the Shure 846's which are superb. Pricey but worth the money. 

Timmo1341 posted:

Skip posted:

I  have a pair of Shure 535 in-ear phones.    If I had it to do over, I would get the 535LTD.   They do not need an amp, so they should work with your Naim headphone jacks,  and the sound is truly outstanding.      I used to use Etymotic ER4P with a P to S adapter.   They are quite a bit cheaper than the Shure and also sound great.    I have considered various headphones over the years but have never found a pair that I prefer to the 535.  

Skip

Have you had the opportunity to try the Shure 846? I currently own the 425 version and want to upgrade. Given the massive price difference between the 535 ltd and 846, and the fact the reason for the upgrade is to improve the bass, do you have any views you can share which may save me a bunch of cash?

Tim

If you want IEMs that do bass well, you want the 846. Sorry!

Stover posted:

Just to conclude on this question.

I have cleaned up and sold all of my gear, Qute and SN2 as well. In that way reduce redundancy to zero.

One option was the simpler Atom with an external poweramp, but again the redundancy and need of a headlamp will follow me. Then purchased an almost new 272/250DR which for me will be a simple, but very good music machine for the speakers, and also a very good headamp. XPS may be added later and will improve both needs.

Please God, make this a solution that will live at my place, for years 

S

 

Hi Steinar. Like you, I have been on the upgrade treadmill and didn't like it. I have had the 272 and 250 since July 2015, with an XPS joining a little later. All I can say is that owning it has been a total delight and I have not found it lacking in any way. Of course there are better systems out there but that is not the point. I really, really wish you well and hope that you come to enjoy your system as much as I enjoy mine. 

are we talking about stereo or as a headphone amp? 

I am using for both but 272 headphone amp is useless with hard to drive headphones such as HD800, LCD-2 etc..

It is ok with fostex 900 or Elear...  ı use my Elear and Fostex Th00 with 272 sometimes... no complaints. 

But even a mojo is a better amp, if you are serious about headphones you can easily add a Creek or Arcam headphone amp and enjoy 272 as a streamer only, this is what i did. 

On the stereo side i am very happy with my 272.... it is best value for money in Naim chain in my opinion and quite upgradable with a better PS and Power amp, cabling. 

846 and iems are all different story, just get a mojo or a AK70 or ZX2 or new Sony whatever the budget, and 846 are not the last word for iems at all, if you go for items go for a nice Noble

Well, quite funny when I wrote headphonelamp  obviously it should be headphoneamp.

I've been told, also by you Emre, 272 is not the best amp for headphones, but still ok for easy to drive phones as Elear. My 272/250 will run the speakers in the living room as a stereo system and I may listen to the headphones there as well. For an open design as Elear I will built another system in the loft, by the second TV. That system could be based on an Atom (because of the streamer option) and a dedicated amp for Elear. That's my plan, flexibility in mind.

HH, I hope you're right, in the end it's my responsibility to stop the treadmill. I love listening to music and the system presenting it should make it enjoyable. 

S

After listening elear with 272 now I set up the Creek obh 21mk2 to drive Elear, I am sorry to say but this little Creek fella destroys 272 headlamp,  even with my relatively budget interconnects.

I really don't get it, naim could have come up with something better or not include this at all.

Elear is a fantastic Headphone! 

I own a audiolab mdac in my second system and the headphone amp is okay-good, I have a chord Hugo in my main set up and it's definitely a step up but I'd still choose my speakers over my ultrasone edition 12 headphones. That was until I recently purchased a s/h lehmann black cube linear headphone amp. It's ability to pick out the detail is amazing and as it lives mainly in my second system it also allows me to use it as a single source a-class preamp to attenuate the m-dac volume to get the best from its dac. When I get chance I'll hook it up to my Hugo I'm sure it will be even better.

New arcam, creek, violectric are all good headphone amps that deliver a far better performance than naim kit output

lets not forget dave, hugo and mojo trio

so we are waiting a world class amp from naim with a decent price without needing a supercap to run decentley

Thanks for your input. A dedicated headphone amp that can easily be moved to where I might find my main headphone position (LR or loft), may be purchased at some point, In the meantime, 272 (250DR) was a good choice for me. I`m very pleased with it so far.

S

Try mojo you might be surprised to hear the Elear synergy