There and back again – NACA5 to SuperLumina and back to NACA5

jon honeyball posted:

for me, it was classic "PRAT". SL just didnt make my foot tap. I adore everything else it does. But it doesnt make my foot tap in the way that NACA5 does. This was on context of NDS/500DR/300DR etc system.

What would happen on my 52/6x135/DBL system I have no idea. But im not prepared to spend that much on speaker cable -- there are downsides to a 6 monoblock active system :-) But remember that said 6x135/DBL is incredibly revealing, and took to the S1Pre with huge gusto. 

jon

ha ha... the "foot-tap" test!

i attended a demo at a London dealer once -- as it happens another punter was also interested in the same system -- so we had a joint demo. I wont mention specifics to protect the dealer and the fellow punter.

As i recall, this fellow punter was tapping his foot to the music -- very enthusiastically. i wasn't moved. in fact the music sounded "wrong" to me and i excused myself before the full demo was over. both the dealer and the fellow punter were very confused how come i couldn't "get it"? eh...!

thanks for the invitation Jon -- yes, it would be interesting to arrange this -- and i promise NOT to tap my feet furiously when SL speaker cables are in circuit 

enjoy

ken

ken c posted:

But extra clarity of reproduction could highlight the fact that its natural for musicians no play 'not exactly together'.  Its also interesting to try to understand what poor timing means for a solo artist -- rubato -- where the artists exercises some rhythmic freedom...

sorry, its evident i don't really know what  i am talking about... 

enjoy

ken

Only the real masters should be allowed to play rubato. One should completely master timing before rubato is allowed. An example from classical music: Artur Rubinstein playing Chopin. His left-hand is playing the broken base chords precisely in time. Contrary to that, the melody is often a bit behind or forward.

Sinatra is also a master in this.

Its the inner-metronome.

And to me it was a revelation when I for the first time heared a Symphony orchstra on my naim gear. From completely silent to fortissimo spot on in time, whilst on my older technics mid-fi system the base was muffled and slow. Dynamics ...

Found SL way too bright for me, amazing resolution especially high end but way too sparkly, almost too upfront in presentation too.

NACA5 stays with me also. 

But I would like to try the SL interconnect from 272-250DR where it may be best applied?

I guess it's the old adage - the more expensive product may seem an "improvement" and on many levels it will be but may not be ultimately as enjoyable.  But it's all good really. 

Regards,

Lindsay

Leaving aside the fact I'd need six 9m runs of the stuff, and have to pull up the floor, I'm not inclined to try SL in my system. I did give a (run in) phono to DIN SL interconnect a good trial, but that had the same effect as others report with the speaker cable - lots of detail, airiness, but a loss of musicality; my existing Super Sarum was considerably more preferable to mine and my wife's ears. As an aside, with the notable exception of the Melco N1Z, changes I've recently tried to make in my system have all been detrimental for exactly the same reason - a loss of PRaT if you like, that makes the music uninteresting.

It's pretty clear that others love what SL does in their systems, and I can understand it. Not for me I'm afraid.

I spent a lot of time with both the NACA5 and SL speaker cables when I demoed them at home. I swapped these two excellent cables over a few times and recognise some of their traits referred to above. Admittedly I did not hear a loss in PrAT or simply 'timing' as others have mentioned - that does of course assume we have a common understanding of these qualities which is probably not the case.

In the end it was the extra detail and air (I think I described them as more incisive) that swayed me in favour of the SL. I wouldn't say they are any more (or less) 'fun' than the NACA5s but I did find the SLs more involving. It is clear to me that some may not prefer the SL's traits and I also believe that the relative merits of each cable is system dependent. I simply remember being very convinced by the SLs over the NACA5s at the time.

Each to his own and life would be rather boring if we all agreed on everything.

Nigel - funnny enough I prefer my Monitor Audios with SL. And that is how they stay

On Ovators it's not so clear cut. Hence the post

jon honeyball posted:

its what ive found. But other people might disagree, which is fine.

as i said before, SL speaker cable is *streets* ahead of NACA5 in every single area. Except one, which is the musical timing. 

If you find all the other attributes to be beguiling, then great. I couldnt live with SL as I have heard it because I wouldnt end up listening to my system. 

But... remember I am used to 6x135+DBLs which focus like a laser beam on timing. 

I toally agree ! I had a home demo of th ecable for a w-e. And yes, the SL makes everything better. The high frequencies a so sweet, bass is deeper and stay realistic, the warmth of the voices amazing,...etc but... timing. I found my NACA quicker than the SL.

Now, considering the all thing, is the feeling makes the SL Slower, it also gives the ability to hear more and make the music more relaxed which is a great point ! I ahve a pair on the way and will have chance to make another trial.

Also, the interconnect SL, is a 100% upgrade over hiline - no possible way back.

Adam Zielinski posted:

Nigel - funnny enough I prefer my Monitor Audios with SL. And that is how they stay

On Ovators it's not so clear cut. Hence the post

Interesting, and my home demo was done with the MA GX300s which I am still using. It does appear there is some system-dependence going on here as well as personal preference. Thinking about it, that is stating the bl**din' obvious.

if  we are after fun

muso is fun also  just pump it up!

Hi Adam,my system is N 272/250 dr/xps dr (soon to be added) and i have (2) 7m runs of nac a5 which have the "F" connections added,all on Fraimlite,with 2 powerlines and the stock din to xlr cable,running to Taksim reference 3a's.I am very happy with what i am hearing so far with the Nac a5,i always thought i would end up with the sl full loom,as i have an addictive personality when it comes to audio,but after hearing this,you have me re- thinking Super-lumina, It will be hard for me to get a home demo because my local dealer just closed,what is the best place to start?the interconnect?has anyone tried it,and returned to stock cable?If i went with the speaker cables(Super-lumina) i would only need 3.5 meters,i just grabbed the 7m Naca5 because i got a deal,but it is too long...what to do.

See the trouble you have caused Adam!

nigelb posted:

See the trouble you have caused Adam!

Not me Sir, honest. They made me do it...

Because Adam has decided that what he decided before is not the right decision does not mean that anything has changed or that people need to rethink what they have decided. It is worth noting that Adam is using other cables such as Chord and Tellurium which introduces all sorts of other factors. The only way to asses whether a wire, or anything else, is right for you is to try it at home. 

For what it's worth, I swapped to SL from A5 and find it better in every way. There was a massive improvement in the connection with the music and I haven't noticed any timing issues, whatever they might be. 

No quarter posted:

Hi Adam,my system is N 272/250 dr/xps dr (soon to be added) and i have (2) 7m runs of nac a5 which have the "F" connections added,all on Fraimlite,with 2 powerlines and the stock din to xlr cable,running to Taksim reference 3a's.I am very happy with what i am hearing so far with the Nac a5,i always thought i would end up with the sl full loom,as i have an addictive personality when it comes to audio,but after hearing this,you have me re- thinking Super-lumina, It will be hard for me to get a home demo because my local dealer just closed,what is the best place to start?the interconnect?has anyone tried it,and returned to stock cable?If i went with the speaker cables(Super-lumina) i would only need 3.5 meters,i just grabbed the 7m Naca5 because i got a deal,but it is too long...what to do.

 

Enjoy the music

On a serious note: one of the forum members (Mr HH Flatfish) reports very good results with your equipment and a full SL loom. But I think it's very speaker / room dependent. If you music soesn't sound broken, don't mend it.

As to what to do: just enjoy it. The first and possibly the only upgrade you may want to do is to change that shoelace Naim calls DIN-XLR going into your NAP 250. SuperLumina is good. So is Chord Tuned Aray.

Or a Witch Hat Hatpin for £120. 

Hungryhalibut posted:

Or a Witch Hat Hatpin for £120. 

Apologies but it has been ages since I have done a +1, so +1. The Witch Hat DIN/XLR goes very nicely with the SL IC and SL speaker cable. I speak from experience. Great VFM.

I am sure a full SL loom is better, but I am presently have with my mixed loom. 

Anyone using the Witchhat hat pin care to post a review of the cables?

Hungryhalibut posted:

Because Adam has decided that what he decided before is not the right decision does not mean that anything has changed or that people need to rethink what they have decided. It is worth noting that Adam is using other cables such as Chord and Tellurium which introduces all sorts of other factors. The only way to asses whether a wire, or anything else, is right for you is to try it at home. 

For what it's worth, I swapped to SL from A5 and find it better in every way. There was a massive improvement in the connection with the music and I haven't noticed any timing issues, whatever they might be. 

Very true.

My post is more about an interesting dilema in a context of my systems. I appreciate both cables and like them both in my systems where they work well. One seems to  be more suited in one system and the other one suits both (SL).

Does that make one cable more universal than the other? Perhaps SuperLumina is that cable. But in a context of an all Naim-system NACA5 performs really, really well.

HH makes a good point too - an SL full loom. I'm waiting for a DIN-XLR SuperLumina to test between 252/250. First I will test it with a NACA5 and then will swap speaker cables between the systems to check the SL full loom impact.

One thing I have learned:  both NACA5 and SL are good and perform to my liking.

Laxton Yeo posted:

Anyone using the Witchhat hat pin care to post a review of the cables?

I replaced the stock DIN/XLR  with the Witch Hat about 4 years ago (the version for the NAP250) and I think I posted something at the time. Anyway it is too long ago to give a detailed review, others may have a more recent experience. I do remember it was a rather nice, but not earth-shattering, improvement over the stock cable.

You can buy one from Witch Hat and return it if you are not happy, so zero risk.

A5 has more slam than SL but I'm not sure if that slam sounds slightly forced. Apart from maybe the reduced dynamics, I think SL is better in every other way (apart from high price of course).

It's been interesting reading this thread and my thoughts seem to echo many others. I have had a variety of speakers here over the years and used a variety of exotic speaker cables. However my trusty Naca remains between my 500 and ARTs.

i have heard more detailed cables, cables with more slam and greater bass, bigger soundstage, you name it, but whenever I put my Naca back the music returns and you suddenly realise that you have been missing something!

Strictly as an observational poster as I'm not fully fledged within the fold as far as proper experience of the situation at hand - cables are cables and speaker cables have always been from what I have observed and experienced least offer bang for buck.. that is until the other cables offer the right combination of qualities for them to shine as they should.

strictly speaking as an observer of the Naim fold and aware of some of the "ideas " that are held historically about cables in general, this episode of doubt is typical.

In a CDX2/555ps/282/250, don't remember which cap system with NBLs the Hiline was fun where the SL was impressive but analytical. Putting a loose loop in the DIN/Cannon cable with the hiline in place made the sound analytical without the SL benefits. My suspicion is that the harmonics are getting out of step so that transients lose their impact but I'll admit that might be a load of Jackson's.

It seems as though my best option would be to go for the Superlumina din to xlr,since I am using the stock cable right now,I don't see the point of adding a Witchhat(no offence) only to replace it later.Then live with the Nac a5 while my Xps dr breaks in...then consider the speaker cables.My closed dealer can still order things for me,but I am committed to buy it since he no longer has an actual store.