Upgrades XS2

Hi,

well a SN2 will resolve more and give a considerably better soundstage but not necessarily warmer.  I've only heard the Hugo with phones so can't comment, 

But in all the many demos I've heard of Proac I've never been impressed which is a shame because they are a local company to me and I would love to engage with them.  But coincidentally I've heard the Sugden and Proacs on several occasions and whilst it is far from harsh pairing it struck as rather dry even sterile.  So I might look to speakers - perhaps Neat?    For now your wires are fine. 

Good luck. 

Lindsay

The Strat (Fender) posted:

Hi,

well a SN2 will resolve more and give a considerably better soundstage but not necessarily warmer.  I've only heard the Hugo with phones so can't comment, 

But in all the many demos I've heard of Proac I've never been impressed which is a shame because they are a local company to me and I would love to engage with them.  But coincidentally I've heard the Sugden and Proacs on several occasions and whilst it is far from harsh pairing it struck as rather dry even sterile.  So I might look to speakers - perhaps Neat?    For now your wires are fine. 

Good luck. 

Lindsay

Cheers

Could you tell me why you don't engage with the Proacs? What is it about them that doesn't tick your boxes?

Funny that you say sterile on the Sugden. The reason I have lined up a demo is because I am told they are very rich, sweet and warm. Funny old world of ears. 

Maybe they aren't what I though they might be! We shall see. 

Any particular neats, up to 2.5k?

Adam

Adam,

in my opinion the Momentum SX3 at £2.6k is mindblowibgly good but you would need stands.  A friend of mine has them with a SN2 and it's one of the best systems I've heard at any price   Neither over warm and never harsh the music truly flows.  They also work very well with the XS2 but of course the usual provisos apply vis a vis demos etc. 

Proac - uninvolving is how I would describe but as you say we all hear things differently. 

Lindsay

ThatsNotMyNaim posted:

...
Funny that you say sterile on the Sugden. The reason I have lined up a demo is because I am told they are very rich, sweet and warm. Funny old world of ears. 
...

The Sugden has a class A operation output stage, and hence is quite sensitive to the speakers used.

I think with adding a Hugo TT, you might be going a bit front end heavy. I think a SN2 would provide better balance to your system, although I can't comment on your speakers. I went from Nait XS-1 to SN2 and found it to be a very worthwhile upgrade.  

The Strat (Fender) posted:

a SN2 will resolve more and give a considerably better soundstage but not necessarily warmer.

I agree in general, but it depends on what you listen to. The more resolving SN2 will glow warm with well mastered recordings but can be rather brutal with poor recordings especially from the previous millennium; however, if you listen mostly to modern, loudness-mastered music the SN2 treats these equally well, with plenty of warmth and controlled (albeit compressed) bass, if that's what you like.

Alternatively, the Nait XS2 will make a wider range of recordings sound acceptable (including poorer ones from any era), but does this without taking you deeper into the music.

Thanks both.

My thinking on the TT was because of it's extensive RF filtering and Galvanic Isolation over the Hugo. 

That would probably keep me happy that system nasties are being kept out as much as possible. 

NDX is the other route. But means an extra box.

I really think you have to try various options.   If you went NDX would it be still with the Hugo?  For me the more interesting test would be trying an NDX/XPS without the Hugo.  Can you ask your dealer for a home demo of the SN2.  But I'd still think about the speakers. 

I know. That's the difficult bit. Pockets aren't bottomless either, unfortunately.

I would love to hear NDX/XPS. But when I did a Naim Dac the Naim just couldn't deliver the transients and harnonics the way the Hugo does. Ben Watt - North Marine Drive is utterly spectacular with the Hugo in the mix. Totally transfixing. But I shouldn't, and won't close, the door on it. Though I have a feeling the TT will send me over the edge.

I can demo a SN2 and a TT easily, but my dealer doesn't have NDX's / PSUs. No demand apparantely. So that's more difficult. But have recently found a new dealer in the opposite direction who does have more bits and bobs. 

After NDX/TT/SN2 I am completely done. No more finance for beyond that for a good few years. 

I'm starting to think the Sugden isn't going to work for me.

I think my problem is, that sometimes I adore the detail, transients and separation of the Naim/Chord/Proac setup. But sometimes after work I am knackered and need something a little more lush and sleepy. So perhaps I just need to buy a valve for such times. Second amp. 

Had an eventful day today.

Went to Definitive Audio to listen to a Canary Tube CD player+Sugden A21+Living Voice speakers (very expensive 9k - not sure what the model was). Absolutely gorgeous flowing sound, immense transparent soundstage, loads of space and atmosphere. Quite an eye-opener. I'm thinking about sticking for a while and saving to go down a similar route. I can't describe how sweet the voices sounded and flowed.

I also picked up today some demo units. A Hugo TT and a Supernait 2.

Hugo TT vs my Hugo

I'm actually a bit disappointed. Considering the 3k price tag versus the Hugo's £1400, you don't really get much improvement over USB. I am not even sure I would call it 'improvement'. It's just a little different. The little Hugo is airey and livelier but not it a bad way. Dynamically. It feels more spacious and engaging. The TT fattens and thickens things slightly and sounds a bit more constricted and recessed. There's a bit more smoothness but at the expense of dynamics and contrast. Some.tracks are a bit more rousing but some less engaging. I was expecting ALOT more. This is definitely a taste decision. Try before you buy. Giving I have a pretty clean signal, I'll keep my Hugo unless a few grand falls out of the sky. 

Supernait2 vs XS2

Well, I am not sure on this one yet either. It's bigger sounding. Smoother, and a TAD laidback. But it's also cleaner and more academic (less romantic) than the XS2 which has a TAD warmer and more ambient feel. Layers are more clearly separated but it doesn't seem to lose musicality. Dynamically it seems to move around more. Instruments jumped out a wee bit. You can see how if you listen to it long enough it would lure you in. But there's not a great deal in it really. You could miss the differences if you wern't an audio nutcase. 

So a bit of a funny old day. No night or days.

Well there's very few if any absolutes are there?  

The Strat (Fender) posted:

Well there's very few if any absolutes are there?  

Seems not. I really thought these would be givens, though. 

Just to make sure you're making a fair comparison, are the demo units brand new? They may need some time to warm up/burn in. See how you feel about them after a week.

No they are fully run in units. I will of course re-assess in a few days when they've been on.

Interesting thoughts! I'm sure another forum member has demo'd the TT and ended up sticking with Hugo. 

Re: the SN2... you pretty much describe most of the improvements I thought it brought over the XS-1. It also has greater slam when required and seems to have a noticeably lower noise floor. Importantly though, like you say, it retains that musicality and drive, which I loved so much about the XS-1. 

Hugo works very well with the SN2, especially when it has been tweaked.  I'm sure that the TT is capable of a better sound, although I'm not sure £1500 worth of better but that's a matter of taste and pocket, but I would say that the Hugo is more than capable of holding its own in better company than your current amp

Thanks for the honest feedback Thatsnotmynaim. Quite interesting indeed on both accounts. Cheers.   

Chag - 

ThatsNotMyNaim posted:

gHugo TT vs my Hugo

I'm actually a bit disappointed. Considering the 3k price tag versus the Hugo's £1400, you don't really get much improvement over USB. I am not even sure I would call it 'improvement'. It's just a little different. The little Hugo is airey and livelier but not it a bad way. Dynamically. It feels more spacious and engaging. The TT fattens and thickens things slightly and sounds a bit more constricted and recessed. There's a bit more smoothness but at the expense of dynamics and contrast. Some.tracks are a bit more rousing but some less engaging. I was expecting ALOT more. This is definitely a taste decision. Try before you buy. Giving I have a pretty clean signal, I'll keep my Hugo unless a few grand falls out of the sky. .

 

Interesting. When I compared Hugo and TT, with Mac Mini /Audirvana source, plus Gustard U12 USB/SPDIF isolator/converter with Hugo, direct into Bryston 4Bsst2 power amp and firstly PMC Fact 12 speakers at the dealer's, then into PMC EB1i speakers at home, TT sounded better: primarily improved clarity. On its own, however, I don't think I would feel the price difference was really worth it for the TT - however it has other benefits, including a remote volume control (never had one of them an a hifi before!) and and dual outputs (one balanced) that could give different options with my power amp., which combined with the relatively small improvement in sound quality may have swung it for me....except Dave was so much ahead that the contest was quickly over.

I upgraded from Hugo to TT. I prefer the sonic signature of the TT. However, the sound quality difference is not huge. Unless you really need the remote volume and galvanic isolation on the USB (I did having laptop as source and active speakers) then I'm not sure it's worth upgrading.

ThatsNotMyNaim, I'm beginning to think the 'grainy' you describe could be from your speakers... it certainly won't be coming from the TT HD USB input (unless it is an older one with the fault I have previously have wrote about - noise when display is lit).

The differences between Hugo and TT are likely to become more apparent when going direct to active speakers or power amp (bypassing any preamp).

Have you tried different speakers?

Halloween Man posted:

ThatsNotMyNaim, I'm beginning to think the 'grainy' you describe could be from your speakers... it certainly won't be coming from the TT HD USB input (unless it is an older one with the fault I have previously have wrote about - noise when display is lit).

The differences between Hugo and TT are likely to become more apparent when going direct to active speakers or power amp (bypassing any preamp).

Have you tried different speakers?

 

Could well be. Maybe I have too much blind faith in ProAc and their self stated "natural" sound. Though to be fair I tried many brands when I started and the ProAcs easily sounded the most cultured. Though lets be honest they are 1300 quid speakers.

Recently tried some B&W CM10 I think. With the pokey, outey tweeter. Awful tinny. And some Monitor Audio. Also pants. ATC SCM7 or 12 and they were really lean and hollow sounding in the setup. PMC below 24 series sound really attacking to my ears so can't go there. 

I might try some more expensive ProAc. 

The Living Voice speakers I heard yesterday offered easily the most natural, open and grain free sound i've ever heard. And I had a lot of ropey (imo) stuff at the audio show recently. Long Dog Audio killing some Harbeth's. 

My last test will be an NDX - to have a really good signal input. And maybe some Proac D2 / D20 or Neats.

If not of that really hits the spot then I am going into temporary retirement and not coming out until i've got a stack of cash to build something more suitable. Which will likely be expensive.

I've got some Atlas Hyper 3.5 on demo versus Odyssey 2 (current cable).

This has made as much difference as the unit swaps. Rounded things off a tad and smoothed things out. But I am undecided if I like the change. only 25 hours run time yet though. another 30 at least to go. if you system is bright, atlas will tame it. but you have to go to at least hyper 3.5 or it will sound too boxed in.

For a neutral presentation it's also well worth investigating Spendor and Harbeth.

If you want a neutral sounding speaker that's easily driven by the XS 2 but can live with much more expensive amps without being shown up, then the Spendor SP2 is well worth a listen.  It's a very capable speaker and yet a very easy load for an amp (min impedance is 6.3Ω); this is a rare combination!  I know they can easily be driven by an XS 2, as I use a 272 driving the power amp section of the XS 2 driving a pair of SP2s.

As with any speaker I'd still recommend an audition, speakers vary way too much to be bought 'blind'.

might be worth trying the living voice speakers you liked so much with your own system.

Somebody once told me Living Voice and Naim was a match made in hell?