Early Impressions : Chord Epic Twin vs Naca5

JoexNaim posted:

No Huge, tone controls will help those with hearing loss as they allow you to balance the sound to counter the loss of treble or bass you're experiencing as you age. I'm in acoustic heaven because my music sounds absolutely perfect these days. And I'm also re-assured that, should my hearing get even worse I still have loads of adjustment left to me.

I can't get excited about Room correction because it is a very expensive implementation of tone controls and can't take into account an individuals hearing, therefore a really important factor is missing from the equation as the high end trickery scans your room.

Room correction = emperors new clothes.

Tone controls aren't the right solution for hearing loss, as hearing loss is rarely broadband.  You need much more precise control to balance hearing loss without disturbing a shed load of other frequencies as well.  For this you need parametric equalisation, and digital methods are preferred, as then you can implement sharper and more precise filters.

Room correction certainly isn't fictitious and need not be expensive.  The device I use cost about £110 (+ £90 for RCA the cables to connect it to the system!); the measurement microphone cost £80.  If I used it in a different way, then I could apply some very precise equalisation for my hearing loss at the same time as correcting the LF resonance of the room, but I choose to not use it in that configuration.

However using tone controls is still better than using speaker cables for the same purpose as with tone controls you can adjust the perceived frequency response and still select the speaker cables so as to cause less compromise to other aspects of the sound. 

Of course tone controls are right for hearing loss, if you're listening for enjoyment?

I think you and I need to move on Huge as we wouldn't agree on anything...lol

JoexNaim posted:

Of course tone controls are right for hearing loss, if you're listening for enjoyment?

I think you and I need to move on Huge as we wouldn't agree on anything...lol

Since when did the Naim 282 (as on your profile) have tone controls?

...fair point CDB. Will update my profile.

Stover posted:

I have no problems to understand that musicality or emotion makes the foot tap or the person to enjoy what he/ she hear or feel, and that hifi makes the opposite.

 

Why should hifi have the opposite effect? If hi fi means true to the original performance (which in terms of the systems we have control of  translates as true to the recording we can access), then if the music had that  emotion or 'boogie factor' or 'musicality', a decent hifi system should present that in the listening room - while if it is lacking in the original, it would be lacking in the listening room. And although finding some way to emphasise some aspect or other responsible for, e.g., triggering foot tapping, may be pleasurable to some, it is not faithful to the performance (recording thereof).

However, certainly not all equipment sold as "hifi" is capable of high fidelity reproduction, which is particularly true when it comes to speakers, and as a result so-called hifi systems can and do fail to do what it says on the tin, and if that then doesn't convey the emotion and 'musicality' etc., then something is wrong.

...something is fundamentally wrong in the world of hifi. Too many posts on every single forum about bass not being quite right or harsh treble. It's the room or the hearing, not the equipment.

I had a lovely time with my 282 until I moved. The new listening room made my Naim combo sound dire, no matter how long I gave it to run in, moved speakers about or dressed cables, it just wouldn't work.

I was about to go down the whole 'supercap' or 'better speakers' route when I decided that I'd go with tone-controls and I would now never go back to a system without that option.

I wonder if all this points to the reason some members find Super Lumina not to their taste, compared to NACA5? Perhaps the SL is just too transparent and faithful to the original recording, and the NACA5 devotees prefer the 'coloured' sound of the cheaper, less high fidelity capable product.  No right or wrong, just straightforward personal preference. The only thing that does wind me up slightly is this slavish 'it's Naim so it has to be better' attitude displayed by a very small minority. Just because I use Naim source and amplification does not mean I ought to use their speakers and cables, or that I'm somehow lacking in taste or auditory appreciation by not doing. Elitism, be it technical or artistic, should have no part to play in this forum

Innocent Bystander posted

Why should hifi have the opposite effect? If hi fi means true to the original performance (which in terms of the systems we have control of  translates as true to the recording we can access), then if the music had that  emotion or 'boogie factor' or 'musicality', a decent hifi system should present that in the listening room - while if it is lacking in the original, it would be lacking in the listening room. And although finding some way to emphasise some aspect or other responsible for, e.g., triggering foot tapping, may be pleasurable to some, it is not faithful to the performance (recording thereof).

That's exactly the point though; I just want to play music and enjoy it as much as possible, so for me, there's little point in an extremely accurate system that accentuates the shortcommings of the recordings.  I'd rather be told a beautiful lie.  I do get that not everyone feels that way - but we were originally talking about Chord Epic vs NACA5, which turned into a conversation about the terms 'hifi' vs 'musical' and then, errm, tone controls,  hearing loss and room correction. Whatever your chosen illusion, I hope you throughly enjoy it.

Timmo1341 posted:

 Just because I use Naim source and amplification does not mean I ought to use their speakers and cables, or that I'm somehow lacking in taste or auditory appreciation by not doing. Elitism, be it technical or artistic, should have no part to play in this forum

I have to confess that I was once naïve enough to make that mistake. 2 years with Ovators, after believing the hype, thinking it was me or my room / set-up / cables. I just didn't like them. Not for me. An expensive way to learn an important lesson.

Seth posted:

That's exactly the point though; I just want to play music and enjoy it as much as possible, so for me, there's little point in an extremely accurate system that accentuates the shortcommings of the recordings.  I'd rather be told a beautiful lie.  I do get that not everyone feels that way - but we were originally talking about Chord Epic vs NACA5, which turned into a conversation about the terms 'hifi' vs 'musical' and then, errm, tone controls,  hearing loss and room correction. Whatever your chosen illusion, I hope you throughly enjoy it.

Ironically I totally agree, even though I'm in the opposite camp - I prefer accuracy provided it doesn't degenerate to a lack of involvement in the music, as that would detract from the enjoyment.

Interestingly going back to speaker cables: I'm considering trying DNM resolution - so there's an unusual option that's under consideration.

Seth posted:

Innocent Bystander posted

Why should hifi have the opposite effect? If hi fi means true to the original performance (which in terms of the systems we have control of  translates as true to the recording we can access), then if the music had that  emotion or 'boogie factor' or 'musicality', a decent hifi system should present that in the listening room - while if it is lacking in the original, it would be lacking in the listening room. And although finding some way to emphasise some aspect or other responsible for, e.g., triggering foot tapping, may be pleasurable to some, it is not faithful to the performance (recording thereof).

That's exactly the point though; I just want to play music and enjoy it as much as possible, so for me, there's little point in an extremely accurate system that accentuates the shortcommings of the recordings.  I'd rather be told a beautiful lie.  I do get that not everyone feels that way - but we were originally talking about Chord Epic vs NACA5, which turned into a conversation about the terms 'hifi' vs 'musical' and then, errm, tone controls,  hearing loss and room correction. Whatever your chosen illusion, I hope you throughly enjoy it.

 My challenge was not that so-called hifi might not sometimes do the opposite to presenting 'musicality and emotion', not making foot tap or the person enjoy the music, but that hifi inevitably meant that, which I don't believe it does because good hifi (to me) should present all the emotion and musicality in the recording in full and without reserve, enabling maximum enjoyment and, if the music is suitably rhythmic and your receptor/reflexes prompt it, tapping of feet.

Picking up one thing you said, which not unfrequently is said by others, at no time through evolution of my system have I found an improvement to the system to make bad recordings sound worse, but rather their sound hasn't improved, or not as much as, the sound from good recordings, so their poor quality may stand out more when going to a bad recording straight from a good one, but then it always was evident that it was inferior, and the fact that I have retained it in my collection will be because I like the music, and maybe it's the only available copy so poor quality is still better than none, and it is no less enjoyable to listen to compared to pre upgrade. Incidentally, in the term 'recording' I include mastering, pressing etc: whatever is involved before reaching my home.

All that said, I wholeheartedly agree that all that truly matters is that the individual likes and enjoys what they hear through their system, nothing being right or wrong unless someone seeks to denigrate another's choices . Where this forum excels is giving insights and ideas that one might otherwise miss, as well as assistance with specific queries, and allowing people to learn from others experience where that is appropriate. And even when we might disagree, we can all learn!

Innocent Bystander posted:

Picking up one thing you said, which not unfrequently is said by others, at no time through evolution of my system have I found an improvement to the system to make bad recordings sound worse, but rather their sound hasn't improved, or not as much as, the sound from good recordings, so their poor quality may stand out more when going to a bad recording straight from a good one...

I used to have a system comprised of an NDX, DC-1, Naim Dac, XPS DR, Hi-line, Unitiserve, 282, Hi-cap DR, NAP200, NACA5, Ovator S-400.  I ended up with the system (from a Supernait) because, with each upgrade step, things seemed more vibrant and exciting. Many albums were truly fantastic - the best I'd had - but there were also many albums I just couldn't listen to anymore... sharp, aggressive, sibiliant and nasty. Things like 'the Pretenders' and more modern recordings - one especially disasterous recording was by 'Lucius'.

I read a lot on the forum. Added room treatments. Fiddled with speaker placements. Moved the system into other rooms. Tried powerlines (5 of them!). I even tried balanced power and got someone to listen to the nDac incase something had gone wrong. Some of these acted as a placebo effect for a while, but eventually, disatisfaction returned. Surely an exemplary system? All Naim. All designed to work together. No?  A negative is that at the time, I read a fair few people on here saying (to others); well, that's how it is as you go up the hierachy, more revealing systems reveal more nasties.  I went into downgrade mode. First, the system was easier to live with without the Dac, so NDX/XPS it was. Then the Ovators; returning to my previous speakers, Epos M16 - a massive reduction cost-wise. I knew I wasn't getting the precision and detail I used to, but it wasn't the be-all and end-all if I couldn't listen to music as I chose.  Was the system just poorly matched, or was its more revealing nature showing me how bad those recordings really are? Did the improvement of an nDac and Ovator make bad recordings sound worse? (as you suggest you have never experienced).  I have since discovered that going up the hierachy (NAP250DR and Sopra No. 1) doesn't mean you have to put up with nasties to get more quality and enjoyment.

A quick update. There are too many changes in my system now so I won't be able to tell what is contributing what to the sound. I have just installed the Wireworld Matrix 2 and Wireworld Electra 7 power cord to the system. Several power cord swapping between the components. The Electra 7 first went into the Chord DAC and the sound wasn't too good - hi-fi sounding. It then went into the Hicap DR and I have to say, the Hicap DR surely appreciates a DIFFERENT cord. Although the system still sounds slightly "hi-fi" with the Chord Epic, the Electra 7 (on the Hicap DR) managed to bring some musicality to the system. There is more drive in the bass and the overall sound is more coherent.

I am not sure if the Wireworld Matrix 2 has brought any impact to the system but the Hicap DR surely appreciates a DIFFERENT cord. The Chord DAC is now on the stock Naim cord.

After everything settles down in a week or two, I will put the Naca5 back into the system and listen again.

By the way, the casing of the Wireworld Electra 7 is rather nice. I find the Electra cord to be higher in quality than the Chord PowerChord in both sound and construction. Correction, the Elektra's sound is not higher in quality than the Chord PowerChord. It's just DIFFERENT.

• Seth posted:

  I used to have a system comprised of an NDX, DC-1, Naim Dac, XPS DR, Hi-line, Unitiserve, 282, Hi-cap DR, NAP200, NACA5, Ovator S-400.  I ended up with the system (from a Supernait) because, with each upgrade step, things seemed more vibrant and exciting. Many albums were truly fantastic - the best I'd had - but there were also many albums I just couldn't listen to anymore... sharp, aggressive, sibiliant and nasty. Things like 'the Pretenders' and more modern recordings - one especially disasterous recording was by 'Lucius'.

  The only times I recall sibilance have been on worn/damaged vinyl records, which I put down to the physical damage, and otherwise with one particular speaker when played at high volume, which turned out to be due to a faulty tweeter.

  It rather sounds (pun not intended!) as if your experience of poor recordings sounding worse and becoming sibilant may be either due to a miss-match of equipment, or an overload somewhere in the treble, or maybe a consequence of equipment seeking to boost some part of the sound for a desired effect, perhaps over-highlighting some part of an unbalanced recording - in your case perhaps the additive effect of each item somehow boosting vibrancy and whatever conveys excitement, as opposed to if everything was neutral - though this is purely conjecture on my part.

              It's nice to know that you resolved it in the end.

Isn't it amazing how a totally innocuous post called "Early Impressions........." about the difference between two sets of quality speaker cable could create such a furore! I for one have thoroughly enjoyed reading this thread even though at times it has drifted to perceived insult to apology and back to serious discussion again (who needs television). We often feel that we want to be proved correct about our choices and it is rare indeed that people express their dismay at some upgrade or change they have made to their own system, and I suppose this is partly what garners such passion. We are one and all, I think, by default passionate about this hobby of ours - I mean most people couldn't give a monkey's chuff about what cable is connecting one black box to another but we will go on and on about it! 

Anyway I write this as I am finishing cleaning a recently bought copy of Feast of Wire by Calexico which I am about to put onto my TT and play through my speakers wired up with................Chord Epic Twin

I have never heard the A5 but my system is the best.........to me at this moment anyway! 

I do think we need to abandon the idea of 'real' or 'as intended' as these are just too subjective. 'Real' according to who? The engineer in a recording studio is listening to the music on a glorified hi fi, so does it mean as close to his/her experience as possible? That has almost nothing to do with the hi fi, and far more to do with the acoustics of the room. And by the way, the acoustics of the room will change from day to day - most booths are full of random stuff. Even in a concert hall, the sound in one part of the hall will be different from that in another. Plus, once again, some engineer has generally stuck the files on a Mac and tweaked them.

As hi fi folks, we like to to think of some platonic ideal of a given piece of music, but it doesn't exist. It's all got tone controls, all of it. Pick the tone that sounds best to you.

Sten posted:

Anyway I write this as I am finishing cleaning a recently bought copy of Feast of Wire by Calexico which I am about to put onto my TT and play through my speakers wired up with................Chord Epic Twin

Music! You win, Sten, I'll be auditioning Epic soon. ;-)

I now find the difference between the Naca5 and Chord Epic Twin to be rather close. The large difference was caused by one cable of the Chord Epic which was connected out of phase. Apparently the red and black wires at the Naim plugs were switched.

When that was rectified, I did an extensive listening. This time it is not so much on the comparison between the Naca5 and Chord Epic but the power cords that are connected to the components. I spent more than seven hours swapping the power cords and speaker cables around, and listening. The Hicap DR has been turned off and on for not less than eight times, I think. The swapping of the cables and cords is not the difficult part, the listening is.

Okay, to cut the story short. I figured out the power cord is quite important and has a rather profound impact to the system. After some exhaustive listening sessions, I believe the component that is most sensitive to power cord is the Hicap DR. The sound of the system changes when I tried aftermarket cords on the Hicap DR. In the end, the components that are still on the stock Naim cord are the NAP 250 DR and NAPSC. All other components inclusive of Hicap DR are on aftermarket cords.

The Chord Epic does not sound "hi-fi" anymore when it is connected in-phase, further optimised by an aftermarket cord. As a matter of fact, the Chord Epic now sounds more like the Naca5 with a slight increase in refinement and detail. There is more verve and drive when the aftermarket cord replaces the stock cord on the Hicap DR.

I may have understood why most people feel the Naca5 is a livelier and more musical cable. With pop and rock music, there is a slight mid-bass lift with the Naca5. Since the mid-bass is more pronounced with the Naca5, there is more drive in the music. With the Chord Epic the mid-bass is subdued, more like missing. For this reason there is a reduction in drive. As the Chord Epic sounds cleaner and tidier than the Naca5, there is a slight reduction in "fun factor" especially with pop and rock music. 

With jazz music, I find the Chord Epic to be more enjoyable due to the added refinement and detail. Deep bass is more or less the same between the Naca5 and Chord Epic. Perhaps the bass goes slightly lower with the Chord Epic.

In summary - no large difference between the Naca5 and Chord Epic. I could have lived happily with both. With pop and rock music, the Naca5 will fit better. With other types of music especially jazz, the Chord Epic has the edge as it is a slightly more refined cable.

In my experience and system. YMMV.

In the context of my system, the Chord Epic does not sound closed or shut-in next to the Naca5. There are many other variables involved other than the speaker cable alone. For this reason it is quite impossible to draw meaningful conclusion from the comparison of the Naca5 and Chord Epic based on one experience.

One thing is for certain though, the Naca5 surely has the boogie factor.

ryder. posted:

In the context of my system, the Chord Epic does not sound closed or shut-in next to the Naca5. There are many other variables involved other than the speaker cable alone. For this reason it is quite impossible to draw meaningful conclusion from the comparison of the Naca5 and Chord Epic based on one experience.

One thing is for certain though, the Naca5 surely has the boogie factor.

Ah, maybe that's it: NACA5 for those that want to boogie, and some other cable for those who want something else from their music? (Obviously not quite as simplistic as that)

ryder. posted:

I now find the difference between the Naca5 and Chord Epic Twin to be rather close. The large difference was caused by one cable of the Chord Epic which was connected out of phase. Apparently the red and black wires at the Naim plugs were switched.

When that was rectified, I did an extensive listening. This time it is not so much on the comparison between the Naca5 and Chord Epic but the power cords that are connected to the components. I spent more than seven hours swapping the power cords and speaker cables around, and listening. The Hicap DR has been turned off and on for not less than eight times, I think. The swapping of the cables and cords is not the difficult part, the listening is.

Okay, to cut the story short. I figured out the power cord is quite important and has a rather profound impact to the system. After some exhaustive listening sessions, I believe the component that is most sensitive to power cord is the Hicap DR. The sound of the system changes when I tried aftermarket cords on the Hicap DR. In the end, the components that are still on the stock Naim cord are the NAP 250 DR and NAPSC. All other components inclusive of Hicap DR are on aftermarket cords.

The Chord Epic does not sound "hi-fi" anymore when it is connected in-phase, further optimised by an aftermarket cord. As a matter of fact, the Chord Epic now sounds more like the Naca5 with a slight increase in refinement and detail. There is more verve and drive when the aftermarket cord replaces the stock cord on the Hicap DR.

I may have understood why most people feel the Naca5 is a livelier and more musical cable. With pop and rock music, there is a slight mid-bass lift with the Naca5. Since the mid-bass is more pronounced with the Naca5, there is more drive in the music. With the Chord Epic the mid-bass is subdued, more like missing. For this reason there is a reduction in drive. As the Chord Epic sounds cleaner and tidier than the Naca5, there is a slight reduction in "fun factor" especially with pop and rock music. 

With jazz music, I find the Chord Epic to be more enjoyable due to the added refinement and detail. Deep bass is more or less the same between the Naca5 and Chord Epic. Perhaps the bass goes slightly lower with the Chord Epic.

In summary - no large difference between the Naca5 and Chord Epic. I could have lived happily with both. With pop and rock music, the Naca5 will fit better. With other types of music especially jazz, the Chord Epic has the edge as it is a slightly more refined cable.

In my experience and system. YMMV.

Ditto  

Quite a few years ago albeit with a CDX2/XPS rather than CDS3 and NAP 200 rather than 250DR I tried Naca A5 against my Odyssey and whilst there was a difference it was minimal - Naca slightly more visceral, Oydessy slightly smoother and open I stayed with the Chord.   

Regards,

Lindsay

ryder. posted

It's still early days with the cables having about 30 minutes on them. Although they are barely run-in I am impressed.

The Naca5 may fit well when matched with Naim speakers. However, for those who are on non-Naim speakers, it might be worthwhile to explore other alternatives.

So, a conclusion that was drawn with cables that not only were not run in, but also were wired out of phase. Hmm. 

In fairness Nigel he says "might be worthwhile......." 

Well yes, but one can say that without trying anything at all. 

Just seen this thread.

FWIW, my experience of Odyssey vs Epic was an easy conclusion.  

It was like half the information from tracks were not coming through with the Odysdey (run in cables from dealer,  no other new components of n the system, and a warmed up system), and blind auditioning on two different  2 long sessions a week apart.

Jude