Vertere HB-Pulse ethernet cable

I use the analogy for modern art, nobody gets it but pay a lot and if you think it's that simple why don't you do it perspectives.

It is not an objective thing, it is way too expensive! 

So we buy our hifi ethernet cables without a decent explanation of the difference vs a belden cable but we are shure that we hear an improvement,  thus modern art

the same we do for our Naim cables which have any more info than the rest, all I know is Vertere was used to supply the SL cables for Naim and there ethernet cable is either a railway or industrial automation spec from there supplier of choice whether it be Belden or numerous others including the RJ45 they have supplied from Telegartner, pricey yes but it's the closest I will get to a Naim SL ethernet if they never produce one.

I'm all for being objective when deciding on how much it is worth spending on any piece of hi fi including cables. But we know measurements can only tell us so much, and indeed often serve to misinform. So actually listening to stuff and appraising how good it sounds to our ears in a particular system and room is about as objective as we can get. But some don't even take the time and effort to actually listen to a component (including cables) before they condemn it as 'over-priced' and a 'waste of money'.

I suggested that there may be some aspects of how different ethernet cables perform that we may not fully understand. Others then proceeded to explain how we do understand all aspects of what influences a cable's performance. Sorry, but if you accept there are some unknowns, then, by definition, they can't be explained with our current knowledge.

A year or two ago I was sitting in a Chord demo of their range of ethernet cables at the Bristol Show and in the audience was a highly sceptical IT guy who worked on digital networks and explained to the Chord demonstrator (who was very good by the way) why ethernet cables could not affect sound quality. It was a joy to watch this guy's face as we went up the Chord ethernet cable hierarchy. Then entered their Sarum streaming ethernet cable. Everybody in the room looked somewhat alarmed at how this cable (on its own) could improve SQ so noticeably. And I don't mean 'change', I mean 'improve'. At this point the IT guy in the audience leapt to his feet and proceeded to inspect the rear of system (particularly the cables being used) as asked the demonstrator what else he had changed in a rather accusatory tone. The Chord guy said 'nothing…just the ethernet cable'. It was the end of the demo, everybody in the audience (including the IT guy) acknowledged these cables made an appreciable and worthwhile difference to SQ. I left the room with the IT guy continuing to challenge the Chord guy on what had 'really' been going on to produce such an uplift in SQ. The Chord guy was trying desperately to clear the room for the next demo he was late for. Hilarious!

I started with cinamon may have shot of vodka

I have Cinnamon flavoured Vodka and rather nice it is too.

Emre posted:

I use the analogy for modern art, nobody gets it but pay a lot and if you think it's that simple why don't you do it perspectives.

It is not an objective thing, it is way too expensive! 

So we buy our hifi ethernet cables without a decent explanation of the difference vs a belden cable but we are shure that we hear an improvement,  thus modern art

Have you yourself tried using better Ethernet cables? I can tell you it is not hard to hear the difference over a cat5a or cat6 cable! You imply it is in your imagination. I assure you it is not. 

nigelb posted:

I'm all for being objective when deciding on how much it is worth spending on any piece of hi fi including cables. But we know measurements can only tell us so much, and indeed often serve to misinform. So actually listening to stuff and appraising how good it sounds to our ears in a particular system and room is about as objective as we can get. But some don't even take the time and effort to actually listen to a component (including cables) before they condemn it as 'over-priced' and a 'waste of money'.

I suggested that there may be some aspects of how different ethernet cables perform that we may not fully understand. Others then proceeded to explain how we do understand all aspects of what influences a cable's performance. Sorry, but if you accept there are some unknowns, then, by definition, they can't be explained with our current knowledge.

A year or two ago I was sitting in a Chord demo of their range of ethernet cables at the Bristol Show and in the audience was a highly sceptical IT guy who worked on digital networks and explained to the Chord demonstrator (who was very good by the way) why ethernet cables could not affect sound quality. It was a joy to watch this guy's face as we went up the Chord ethernet cable hierarchy. Then entered their Sarum streaming ethernet cable. Everybody in the room looked somewhat alarmed at how this cable (on its own) could improve SQ so noticeably. And I don't mean 'change', I mean 'improve'. At this point the IT guy in the audience leapt to his feet and proceeded to inspect the rear of system (particularly the cables being used) as asked the demonstrator what else he had changed in a rather accusatory tone. The Chord guy said 'nothing…just the ethernet cable'. It was the end of the demo, everybody in the audience (including the IT guy) acknowledged these cables made an appreciable and worthwhile difference to SQ. I left the room with the IT guy continuing to challenge the Chord guy on what had 'really' been going on to produce such an uplift in SQ. The Chord guy was trying desperately to clear the room for the next demo he was late for. Hilarious!

I remember when no one believed that power cords made a difference!  I remember when people said all CD players should sound alike cause it is just zero and ones! So yeah people have been skeptical about many things! I know people who say there are no differences in Interconnects and speaker wire! you just need a basic copper wire connection. It is all your imagination! Same now being said about Ethernet cables! 

musicfan51 posted:

Have you yourself tried using better Ethernet cables? I can tell you it is not hard to hear the difference over a cat5a or cat6 cable! You imply it is in your imagination. I assure you it is not. 

Hi musicfan, I might disagree because I think everything that is happening in our brain is imagination per definition. While listening, our brain processes the information from our detection systems to an "image". I fully agree though that two different ethernet cables can  cause a totally different image.

musicfan51 posted:

I remember when no one believed that power cords made a difference!  I remember when people said all CD players should sound alike cause it is just zero and ones! So yeah people have been skeptical about many things! I know people who say there are no differences in Interconnects and speaker wire! you just need a basic copper wire connection. It is all your imagination! Same now being said about Ethernet cables! 

Given all the engineering descriptions elsewhere and even some on this forum, it would be very suprising if Ethernet cables didn't affect SQ on coupled equipment, however the point is you need only  pay upto a few pounds per metre for most of the cable variants out there.. but yes if you don't want to trial and error get a boutique one for a lot more... quite simple really

musicfan51 posted:

Have you yourself tried using better Ethernet cables? I can tell you it is not hard to hear the difference over a cat5a or cat6 cable! You imply it is in your imagination. I assure you it is not. 

I heard a positive improvement when I changed from Cat7 to Cat6,  so don't be too fast to assume you get better SQ just because of the bandwidth headroom of higher Cat numbers.  There is more this than numbers & high cost.    

Take your credit card buy a few highend cables like I did do a good listening and return what you don't like or does not make a difference....easiest way

I have no idea (who truly does?) why Ethernet cables sound different to eachother, but no doubt in my ears that they do. I'mas surprised as anyone, but that's what my ears tell me. The differences also seem not to be subtle or within the realms of 'hearing things' either. 

This evening I've just switched the AQ Vodka, previously on the NDS, with the Cinnamon on the Unitiserve. Strangely, the sound is very different one vs t'other: with Vodka on the NDS the sound is exciting, ultra detailed and impactful, but can emphasise treble and be a bit unrelenting - rather like having the contrast too high on your TV. Putting Cinnamon on the NDS And Vodka on Unitiserve, loses some drama ( I love drama!), but adds colour, richnesss and relieves tension. Think I prefer this way round. 

But, the point is that the differences are as obvious as a box change, so AFAIC, not remotely in the realms of psychobabble.

I'm just pleased that with a combined music store and renderer, not streaming music across a network, I don't have to even think about network cables. BUt if I did, I would listen to the various types developed for networks first, as Simon suggested, and if I wanted to try expensive 'hifi' cables it would only be with the best of those.

Kevin, not sure of your engineering background, but here are two quite good engineering white papers on Ethernet coupling and Ethernet cable  noise considerations on connected equipment from TI. Naim use severeal TI chipsets in their current products.

http://www.ti.com/lit/an/snla108a/snla108a.pdf

http://www.ti.com/lit/an/snla056d/snla056d.pdf

Thanks Simon. Will take a proper look tomorrow and try to work out the implications for my network. I majored in Aeronautical, so more of  a 'sooty' than a 'sparky' and more importantly, when I did studied electrical engineering in the early 80's as part of the course ( it was more electrical than electronic for Aero) the concept of digital was a mere glint in TI's eye...!

I am especially interested in an aspect that NigelB passed on from you re the perils of multiple shielded cables in the network and the possibility of compromised grounding as a result. I now have 4 shielded Ethernet cables in my music loop  with the 2 AQ's on NDS and Unitiserve as well as Chord c-stream on the main and back-up NAS. He mentioned use of Lindy connectors? Would love your advice re that if you think I could have a grounding issue currently. 

Thanks, Kevin

musicfan51 posted:

nigelb posted:

I'm all for being objective when deciding on how much it is worth spending on any piece of hi fi including cables. But we know measurements can only tell us so much, and indeed often serve to misinform. So actually listening to stuff and appraising how good it sounds to our ears in a particular system and room is about as objective as we can get. But some don't even take the time and effort to actually listen to a component (including cables) before they condemn it as 'over-priced' and a 'waste of money'.

I suggested that there may be some aspects of how different ethernet cables perform that we may not fully understand. Others then proceeded to explain how we do understand all aspects of what influences a cable's performance. Sorry, but if you accept there are some unknowns, then, by definition, they can't be explained with our current knowledge.

A year or two ago I was sitting in a Chord demo of their range of ethernet cables at the Bristol Show and in the audience was a highly sceptical IT guy who worked on digital networks and explained to the Chord demonstrator (who was very good by the way) why ethernet cables could not affect sound quality. It was a joy to watch this guy's face as we went up the Chord ethernet cable hierarchy. Then entered their Sarum streaming ethernet cable. Everybody in the room looked somewhat alarmed at how this cable (on its own) could improve SQ so noticeably. And I don't mean 'change', I mean 'improve'. At this point the IT guy in the audience leapt to his feet and proceeded to inspect the rear of system (particularly the cables being used) as asked the demonstrator what else he had changed in a rather accusatory tone. The Chord guy said 'nothing…just the ethernet cable'. It was the end of the demo, everybody in the audience (including the IT guy) acknowledged these cables made an appreciable and worthwhile difference to SQ. I left the room with the IT guy continuing to challenge the Chord guy on what had 'really' been going on to produce such an uplift in SQ. The Chord guy was trying desperately to clear the room for the next demo he was late for. Hilarious!

I remember when no one believed that power cords made a difference!  I remember when people said all CD players should sound alike cause it is just zero and ones! So yeah people have been skeptical about many things! I know people who say there are no differences in Interconnects and speaker wire! you just need a basic copper wire connection. It is all your imagination! Same now being said about Ethernet cables! 

it is a valid point...

i am not against nor pro vs "hifi ethernet" cable, i invested on Belden cat6/telegartners for a very economic sum for 15m for my actual set up and add a short patch of Cinnamon to my 272. Just last week i bought 120m cat7 cable for my new apartment to be installed and i can add a vodka/diamond as a last patch from the switch. 

My only worry that i might be paying far more to a basically same cable, so i am very interested to hear all kind of opinions specially from people who have been in comparison tests like the chord example in a trade show.

still a 75cm of vodka is at the price point that i can invest as a " what if ",  1,000£ is not