'Rollercoaster Ride'...Why?

It's not the amp. It's your bio-clock, local power grid, or some such. But its not the amp.

Graeme - i know what you mean on the 250 - in my case the 250.2 - sometimes a power cycle seems to get it back tip top again - and i tend to leave mine left on.

I think Clay has a point.  No doubt it has been improving but the biggest variable in this audiofoolery business are those 2 things on the side of your head and the bit in between

Time Graham just to enjoy the music. 

Regards,

Lindsay

Clay Bingham posted:

It's not the amp. It's your bio-clock, local power grid, or some such. But its not the amp.

So my bio-clock, the grid or some such become more stable over time...how does that work then?

G

GraemeH posted:

Having just had my new 250DR properly settle down after nearly 3 months I wonder 'why the peaks and troughs?'. Some days sublime and others thin, flat, edgy and shut-in.

The amp now sounds rich, spatious and transparent almost always - still occasional dips but now, say, 90% of the time superb.

Reading others views regarding their DR upgades, particularly the 500, the above seems a consistent experience.

If left on 24/7 why do the amps not simply continue to improve from switch on?

G

GraemeH, much the same the first month was far the worst screechy edgy sound bass all over the place really settled after 3/4 months.

not really sure the 'bio-clock' was a serious explanation -- but even if it were serious -- its hard to imagine that all folks reporting the same experience are suffering the same effect on their bio-clocks.  yes, admittedly there are 'many variables' but we cannot ignore the common (and in my view, dominant) variable in all roller-coaster reports -- i.e. the black box itself.

its a fascinating process -- and for me --its been most pronounced in the upgraded 500 amps. the trend, though, is very clearly for the better.

enjoy...

ken

Sorry guys I can recall the day it was delivered screachy and edgy - never.   

GraemeH posted:

Clay Bingham posted:

It's not the amp. It's your bio-clock, local power grid, or some such. But its not the amp.

So my bio-clock, the grid or some such become more stable over time...how does that work then?

G

Graeme

It really doesn't. After a week or so, perhaps a bit longer, its all in your head. Think about it. The brain's circuitry is vastly more complex and nuanced than any amp. An its organic. If you're going to get variability don't you think it more likely to be occurring in your head's complex circuit than something as simple as a 250 DR?

GraemeH, Iike yourself I ask the same question,  just recently I bought a new Xpsdr, from the start it sounded like a dogs dinner,  after about 2 weeks on 24/7 ....it wasn't much better, after a 3rd week it suddenly started to sing...but a truly painful experience. 

Just a week ago I took delivery of a new nap300 dr, straight out of the box it sounded superb... and now a week later it's still improving, and sounding sublime.

So I offer no explanation,  other then it's not bio clock, or grid or whatever,  but definitely the amp....

Ps, I have a dedicated power supply hence it's not the grid.

Clay Bingham posted:

GraemeH posted:

Clay Bingham posted:

It's not the amp. It's your bio-clock, local power grid, or some such. But its not the amp.

So my bio-clock, the grid or some such become more stable over time...how does that work then?

G

Graeme

It really doesn't. After a week or so, perhaps a bit longer, its all in your head. Think about it. The brain's circuitry is vastly more complex and nuanced than any amp. An its organic. If you're going to get variability don't you think it more likely to be occurring in your head's complex circuit than something as simple as a 250 DR?

No. (Unless something like a virus is affecting it) I think my brain chemistry is quite stable and much better at regulating that stability in a changing environment than 'something as simple as a 250 DR'.

G

We can't all be imagining the run-in changing sonics of cables and equipment. Clearly something is occuring in the physical domain. 

Is there something happening at a molecular level with regard to the flow of current in cables and circuitry, which do not yet undersatand and/or can measure?

Not that long ago, we did not have the ability to measure that the Earth is spherical.

We evolving primates continue to fumble around in the dark and learn.

John. 

This question of the "burn in" process,  albeit cables or black boxes is constantly being discussed/questioned. 

Is there a definitive answer: metallurgical/electronic/technical  or otherwise>?

I for my one am very curious. 

Could Richard George, Steven Sells or anyone else with audio design/engineering experience proffer their opinion.

Surely they must have a theory for want of a better word.

How long do they judge before a development is worth pursuing when faced with this protracted process.

It would be interesting to know.

p,.s to John

I think we are asking very much the same question. 

You got in before I'd finished composing my query.

Is it possible that you can end up with a female version of the nap250dr , or 300dr ect , in which case it will work absolutely fine but only when it's in the right mood...

Grame,

... its the HiFi magic worm getting comfy in its new home

Interesting that, as you note, there have been a number of threads re burn-in but, to my knowledge, no definitive explanation forthcoming ...

... makes you wonder !

so I come back to my HiFi magic worm proposition, you know it makes sense,

Allan

Hi Allan...my mind is usually adept at construing abstract ideas but the magic worm has me at a loss unsmileyface

Please enlighten me smileyface

Best

Graeme

J.N. posted:

We can't all be imagining the run-in changing sonics of cables and equipment. Clearly something is occuring in the physical domain. 

John. 

Both run-in occurs but also how we hear things changes.   How often have we put on a piece of music and it just not sounded right?  When you have a new piece of equipment you will be listening more intently each time which combined with some burn-in will confuse things for a while. 

Regards,

Lindsay

Even with my humble SU, my mood effects my enjoyment and perception of the music. It has always been so, even with my MF/MG system and my previous Naim system.

I am astonished you haven't come across this Graeme !

It was how it was explained to me many years ago when I was young ...

... its the worm that goes through your cables to make the bits of paper in your speaker wobble in and out

... and if you don't treat them nice they take the huff and curl up and hide

... their tiny little babies are dragged out of the grooves in the vinyl

... and they grow up very quickly as they move along those nice wires and cables, conversing with all their pals

... but they have had to evolve so they  can regrow themselves from little packets since we went digital

... wifi F***s them up though

... and that is why we get burn in, the worms have to get used to their new home.

... kinda obvious when someone explains it to you

Allan

Of Course! How obvious....

Thanks for reminding me!

Graeme

Do you know what Allan, I really think you have cracked it.

Hifi magic worms, of course!

Allan, what drugs are you taking, and would you care to share them?  

Sorry to drag the mood back down to the prosaic and mundane.  Magic hi fi worms indeed!.  Everyone knows it's the pixie dust settling on the top of the box.

The usual explanation given for run-in phenomena is that it takes variable amounts of time for the many capacitors to "form".  This an electrochemical process that builds a layer of stuff on the capacitor electrodes.  What it means is that the electronics in the box is a bit off-spec when brand new.  It gets better over a week or two.  There's an interview somewhere with Steve Sells of Naim where he mentions this.

Please don't ask me about cable run-in.

Nope. I still recon it's magic worms.

Oh yeah; I'm not denying the 'mood' thing. And it can apparently affect us differently as individuals. I never understand reports of systems/music relaxing people after a tiring/stressful day. If I'm mentally frazzled, my system sounds pants.

John.