'Rollercoaster Ride'...Why?

Over the decades I've changed bits of kit  many times - and The ONLY times I have experienced the sound of my system seeming better one day, worse another, has been when there was a clear biological cause such as a cold affecting ear internal pressure, or a clear mechanical cause of wear on a CD mechanism causing misreading apparently variable with temperature, worse when cold.

And I simply would not buy something that sounded worse than existing gear in the belief it should sound better, or if I had bought without auditioning I would simply sell it on. 

Whilst some things can change during use due to bedding in of mechanical things, like the compliance of speaker cones, or where heat-sensitive electronic devices are heated, the effects are in most if not all cases gradual, and rarely major, and apart from the possibility of sounding different when hot vs cold, they will not be up and down like a yoyo from day to day. The only ecplanations for that are biological, if something is affecting your hearing, electrical interference for example intermittant or variable RF noise, whether induced directly or carried through the mains or other wiring, or psychological.

And for anyone who retains something that they are disappointed with at first because they believe it should sound better, psychology is a likely explanation for the so-called burn-in as they learn to like it, especially where significant expense is involved.

Why am I not affected by the psychological ups and downs like some other people seem to be, judging by the frequent reports on this forum? I don't know, but possibly for the same reason that adverts never persuade me to buy something (the reverse more often than not), or that I am immune to the sheep mentality of large crowds, or that It takes something really exceptional to excite me (which doe not mean I don't get emotionally stirred by certain things, including good music).

Some thoughts regarding unevenness in the burn-in/run-in process ...

Many of us, myself included, observe that a fully run-in system can sound “off” for no apparent reason. Everything is warmed up, cables dressed correctly etc., but it still sounds blah, to the point where we decide to turn it off, go read a book, do something else. In my experience, this usually correlates with something being off with myself: maybe I’m tired, stressed, or preoccupied. So I’m willing to believe, even though it sounds freaky, that my internal state can affect my perceptions. But while this may be a factor in the run-in rollercoaster, I don’t believe it’s the main factor.

There are many unquantifiable subjective things in hi-fi that get hotly debated. Some people think think they’re very significant, others think they’re exaggerated or non-existent. An example: I struggle to hear the differences between the two sides of my LP12 mat, while others can pick the “better” side in a matter of seconds. One thing I seem to be sensitive to is how well warmed up the various parts of my system are during a listening session and, when I introduce new components, how the sound changes as the component burns in.

Some components seem to burn in in a relatively linear fashion. My Linn Kandid cartridge was good from the beginning, and became gradually better over a period of 2 to 3 months. At no point did it sound off: it was always either as good as it was during the last session, or maybe ever so slightly better. Every week or two I would notice a slight progression until the sound became more or less stable. There was never a day where I thought “OK, it’s burnt in now.” Rather, I would notice that the sound hadn’t evolved noticeably over a period of weeks, and so I would conclude that the run-in process was complete.

New amplifiers and power supplies seem to have their ups and downs during the run-in process. I’ve never heard a new Naim box sound truly bad, but they’ve definitely gone through “blah” phases that can last at least a few days and that rarely correlate with my mood. This leads me to believe that the boxes themselves are the main culprit.

I know that some components such as capacitors change measurably from the first switch-on. They (presumably) reach a steady state after a time and stay there, until such time as they deteriorate and start to drift out of spec. But the box also contains other components that will burn in in various degrees and at different rates. After a time, every component in the box will be fully burnt in but, until then, on any given day, the entire assembly may be like an orchestra where all the players are ever so slightly out of tune, each one a little sharp or a little flat, in such a way that the ensemble sounds a bit weird. A day or two later, things drift randomly into sync again, and the sound becomes more acceptable, continuing day by day until the process is complete and the entire system is singing off the same sheet. I believe that it’s this combination of different components burning in at different rates that causes the ups and downs.

This unscientific theory fails to explain the marked ups and downs that Super Lumina cable users report, but perhaps there’s more complexity to these cables than I’m aware of.

Colm

Interesting contributions folks, thanks.

G

wenger2015 posted:

GraemeH, Iike yourself I ask the same question,  just recently I bought a new Xpsdr, from the start it sounded like a dogs dinner,  after about 2 weeks on 24/7 ....it wasn't much better, after a 3rd week it suddenly started to sing...but a truly painful experience. 

Just a week ago I took delivery of a new nap300 dr, straight out of the box it sounded superb... and now a week later it's still improving, and sounding sublime.

So I offer no explanation,  other then it's not bio clock, or grid or whatever,  but definitely the amp....

Ps, I have a dedicated power supply hence it's not the grid.

Wenger, Do you find the transformer hum/buzz in the 300?

Some interesting and reasonable ideas here but, as someone posted earlier, note no Naim contributions yet ...  makes you wonder ...

Concensus seems a little way off ... seems to me there is a research project here for some university that would involve the psychology, sociology and electronic engineering departments ... proper A/B testing with double-blind trials ... to answer the following questions ...

1. Is there actually such a thing as burn-in (other than accepted warming-up)?

2. Which components does it affect?

3. Does psychological "mood" affect perceptions of sound quality?

4. ... which begs the question of what is meant by "sound quality" anyway?

5. If the above lead to a conclusion that there is burn-in then *why* ?

Anyone know of a friendly university that might be interested?

Allan

PS - I forgot about the most important question ... is it the HiFi magic worms or the pixie dust?

(personally a fairly stupid question since everyone knows that pixie dust doesn't really exist anyway)

AussieSteve posted:

wenger2015 posted:

GraemeH, Iike yourself I ask the same question,  just recently I bought a new Xpsdr, from the start it sounded like a dogs dinner,  after about 2 weeks on 24/7 ....it wasn't much better, after a 3rd week it suddenly started to sing...but a truly painful experience. 

Just a week ago I took delivery of a new nap300 dr, straight out of the box it sounded superb... and now a week later it's still improving, and sounding sublime.

So I offer no explanation,  other then it's not bio clock, or grid or whatever,  but definitely the amp....

Ps, I have a dedicated power supply hence it's not the grid.

Wenger, Do you find the transformer hum/buzz in the 300?

Aussiesteve, no transformer buzz whatsoever, so no issues in that area, I've noticed on various threads that it can be a problem but in my case it sounded superb from the start and continues to improve.. 

Allan Milne posted:

 

Some interesting and reasonable ideas here but, as someone posted earlier, note no Naim contributions yet ...  makes you wonder ...

 

 

 

Scene 1: Naim Engineering

Eyes rolling, tea spilling, loud raucous laughter.......hey Nigel they're at it again on the forum. It's the old " my 250 DR has been breaking in for months......some days it sounds good, some days not so much. You can't make this stuff up! Ha ha ha ha ha!

Scene 2: Naim Marketing

Guys, have you been following the forum? The nonsense about equipment break-in has come up again. Seems to me we're leaving money on the table here. I'm thinking of something along the lines of Salisbury Break-In Flux. You know, a dealer installed paste to put on the capacitors and transformers to speed along "break-in". Something that dissipates quickly, leaves no trace, and doesn't harm the equipment. Sell it for 200-300 quid. We could sell a high impact version for our Statement pieces selling, for say, a 1,000 quid. 

Havers, I think you're on to something!

Allan Milne posted:

 

Some interesting and reasonable ideas here but, as someone posted earlier, note no Naim contributions yet ...  makes you wonder ...

 

Concensus seems a little way off ... seems to me there is a research project here for some university that would involve the psychology, sociology and electronic engineering departments ... proper A/B testing with double-blind trials ... to answer the following questions ...

 

1. Is there actually such a thing as burn-in (other than accepted warming-up)?

2. Which components does it affect?

3. Does psychological "mood" affect perceptions of sound quality?

4. ... which begs the question of what is meant by "sound quality" anyway?

5. If the above lead to a conclusion that there is burn-in then *why* ?

 

Anyone know of a friendly university that might be interested?

 

Allan

 

PS - I forgot about the most important question ... is it the HiFi magic worms or the pixie dust?

(personally a fairly stupid question since everyone knows that pixie dust doesn't really exist anyway)

 

 

We'd need a gargantuan grant Allan...and besides, Clay has already definitively answered all the questions, thus putting our minds at rest and saving public funds!

G

Allan,

I don't think you'll have anyone from Naim posting on this thread - but you could write to Steve Hopkins and ask for any comment.  I was going to point everyone to the section of the manual that covers running in, but Alba beat me to it.  So definitely a phenomenon that is acknowledged by Naim, and not a figment of the imagination.

As to the why?  I like the worm theory.  I'm not convinced it's the right answer, but I like it all the same..

Guys 

You have to have a sense of humor at times like this, at least here in the US. And Graeme if I didn't enjoy your posts over the years I wouldn't bother trying to get you to think about alternatives. 

Alba please note that Naim is talking about "may continue" and a bit over a month not a few months. I'm quite serious when I say for the most part its us not the equipment.

Cheers

Graeme,

You are not the only one who is experiencing this. In my case, it's a little different though as there are just too many changes for the past few months since I got the NAP 250 DR into the system. Initially I was struggling with the rather lean, thin and edgy sound when I got some new speakers into the system. I suspected either the new speakers are leaner sounding than the old speakers, or the new speakers need some breaking in. Over a period of two to three months or so, somehow the lean and edgy sound slowly transformed to full and warm. Now it is sounding quite balanced but it may have tilted slightly to the warmer side  of things. I am not sure if it's the new speakers, the NAP 250 DR or the changes in the setup (new Chord Epic, numerous swapping of power cords into different power strips, and it just happened again earlier today).

In my case, I am pretty sure the changes are not caused by my mood swings. Also, my system does not go from thin, flat, edgy or shut-in to open and spacious and back to thin and flat again. It goes from lean, thin and edgy to full, warm and more musical. The sound quality has surely changed, and I am quite positive it's either the components (NAP 250 DR, Hicap DR or NAC 282 as all of them are new), or the new speakers. The good thing is the system sounds a lot more musical now than it was three months ago.

Seems to be a characteristic of most of the hi-fi stuff I've bought in the last few years. The worst run in experience I've had was with SN2 though... honestly seemed to take forever before it seemed to start showing what it was capable of.

Mayor West posted:

Seems to be a characteristic of most of the hi-fi stuff I've bought in the last few years. The worst run in experience I've had was with SN2 though... honestly seemed to take forever before it seemed to start showing what it was capable of.

Yep, SN2 was horrible but far and away the worse was my TQ Black interconnect which was unlistenable for a shockingly long time before settling in to excellence.  If I hadn't already owned well run in TQ Black speaker cable there is a good chance I would have given up on it.

Clay Bingham posted:

Guys 

You have to have a sense of humor at times like this, at least here in the US. And Graeme if I didn't enjoy your posts over the years I wouldn't bother trying to get you to think about alternatives. 

Alba please note that Naim is talking about "may continue" and a bit over a month not a few months. I'm quite serious when I say for the most part its us not the equipment.

Cheers

Mine was also meant tongue-in-cheek Clay. I thoroughly respect your position on this, particularly as it is unwavering...and wrong

G