SU as a pure preamp

I would suggest you engage the use of your local dealer to listen to the permutations you have listed all options are very good but as the 252 will require a Supercap you will need to decide the best route if are going to end up eventually with a 252, a good dealer will be able to demonstrate the sonic differences between the various combinations you will then be able to decide what suits taking into account budget box numbers etc.

Just take your time to decide but also ensure you have a good mains supply and equipment rack to get the best out of what you decide to purchase have fun on your journey.

alanbass1 posted:

This is my first post on the forum.......

......Due to the Roksan position it is more difficult to arrange an optimum demo

Welcome Alan.

I wouldn't let the above quote stop you getting meaningful dems. You would have to insist on a similarly specced decent record player with, say, a Naim Stageline N phonostage in the first instance, powered from Aux2 of a Naim preamp. The principle here being to establish what a decent record player can do through various Naim preamps (including the N272) not to reopen Linn v Roksan wars. A certain amount of turntable pride to be swallowed here IMO, in order to gain clarity of thought (and more importantly, action!) as to the best way forward.

Please let us know how it goes.

Chris

IMO:

Streamer section...

NDX slightly better than 272
272 slightly better than ND5 XS
ND5 XS slightly better than SU

Preamp Section...

282 better than 272
272 better than 202
202 a lot better than Nait XS
Nait XS better than SU

The differences between the preamps are greater than the differences in the streamers, and the 272 is a remarkable achievement: It's currently the only integrated component that's definitively into the range of sound quality available from the 'Classic' separates range.  The SU's preamp isn't in the same league (although rather compromised, it's still quite usable in the interim 'til you get your target system sorted out).

Having said that, for most people the NDX + 282 / HiCap will still have a significant advantage (at a twice the cost!).  Adding an XPS DR to the 272 closes the SQ gap to the NDX + 282 / HiCap albeit with a somewhat different sonic presentation (the relative SQ is debatable here, but the 272 / XPS DR is still less expensive).  NDX / XPS DR + 282 / SuperCap takes things on again to a place where the 272 can't go (but at a considerable cost increase).

Hi Alan,

As Chris says I wouldn't let the Roksan issue influence this.  I have a Xerxes/Artemiz for which a very renowned Linn dealer does my cartridge changes for me.   Fact is both are excellent turntables it's down to preference.   When you go for a demo a dealer should be able to demo a good vinyl rig if not a Linn or Roksan perhaps a higher end Rega to at least give you a flavour.

Now on to the point in question.   First having heard the 272/250DR I can confirm that it is an excellent pairing but I'm not sure if it will power a Stageline for your TT but you don't have to use a Stageline there are lots of other good phonostages out there.  But I'm about to complicate this  this further by saying that I think the 272 only really comes alive when partnered with a XPS PSU but the same applies perhaps even more so with the NDX.   However, having heard the 272/xps/250DR configuration up against the NDX/XPS/282/HC/250DR I have to say that in my opinion (and it is just my opinion) that the latter has a considerably bigger soundstage, more resolution and for longer period listening is just a more musically satisfying solution particularly with vinyl.  And you can be rest assured that the 252/SC will be even more so - where might you stop??!!  And of course with the 282/252 your box-count increases as does the cost very considerably.  

My advice would be don't be rushed - get into a dealer for a good listen - see what you think, consider your likely end-game if it is 252 territory plan how you might get there bearing in mind that system synergy is everYthing and a pre-amp of that quality might really justify a NDS/555 rather NDX. In the interim you're still getting great music out of your SU/250DR.

Good luck.

Lindsay

Huge posted:

IMO:

Streamer section...

NDX slightly better than 272
272 slightly better than ND5 XS
ND5 XS slightly better than SU

Preamp Section...

282 better than 272
272 better than 202
202 a lot better than Nait XS
Nait XS better than SU

Hello,

In other words 272 better/slightly better than 202+nd5xs...is it? If u ask naim support isn't so, maybe some of us need hours of demo to get the correct answer. In some combinations 272+250 sounds "better" than nac282+ndx+250.

Adi Stefan posted:

Huge posted:

IMO:

Streamer section...

NDX slightly better than 272
272 slightly better than ND5 XS
ND5 XS slightly better than SU

Preamp Section...

282 better than 272
272 better than 202
202 a lot better than Nait XS
Nait XS better than SU

Hello,

In other words 272 better/slightly better than 202+nd5xs...is it? If u ask naim support isn't so, maybe some of us need hours of demo to get the correct answer. In some combinations 272+250 sounds "better" than nac282+ndx+250.

Some people do particularly like the 202 in combination with the 200.
Yes; for these specific people in these circumstances, the ND5 XS + 202 + 200 DR would be the better combination than a 272 / 200 DR as it would probably suit their tastes better.  However in general I stick with my view and the opinion of Jon Green:

"Jon Green, Naim’s Principal Electronics Engineer, has been with the company for three years, following spells with Philips, Cyrus and IAG. Asked where the NAC-N 272 sits in the Naim preamp hierarchy, he explained that ‘the model number should indicate where it’s positioned, but with the addition of an external PSU it’s seriously good."
Quoted from the Review in HiFi News

Adi Stefan posted:

maybe some of us need hours of demo to get the correct answer. In some combinations 272+250 sounds "better" than nac282+ndx+250.

There's not one answer though.

I used my SU as a preamp only when I upgraded to NDX/282/200DR. I also considered 272/XPS/250DR, which is about the same price, but I preferred the former, so that's what I bought. 

I added the 200 first, then the NDX, and they worked fine with the SU as a preamp. Both steps were nice improvements, although the final addition of the 282 was the biggest single improvement for sure, as you might expect. 

I would leave your SuperUniti alone. After all it is designed to work as a one-box solution.

As to which one to go for? Well...depends on the budget a bit. Probably the best and most balanced solution would be N272 + XPS + 250 DR. It's a neat 3 box wonder, with only two leads.

Of course NDX + XPS into 282 / SuperCap /  250 may sound different. But that's a lot of boxes for not much more gain.

Adam

Thanks for the replies. Regarding 'leaving the SU alone' I'm only potentially looking to make use of the SU as a stepping stone. Once I have got to my target system the SU will be reunited with the Neat Iota's in my guitar room.

 I do like the thought of keeping things nice and neat with a three box solution. If the analogue preamp section would bring the best out of my Roksan that would be a good way forward and will allow me to liberate the SU sooner.

Taking 'The Strats' post into account I think that a 252 is probably a bridge too far me, if only it starts to cause upgradeitis across the whole system including my recently purchased NAP 250 DR!

I will audition a 272/XPS/250 DR against  NDX/282/SC/250 DR at my dealer using a basic configuration LP12 that they have and see where that takes me.

alanbass1 posted:

I will audition a 272/XPS/250 DR against  NDX/282/SC/250 DR at my dealer using a basic configuration LP12 that they have and see where that takes me.

 

Good decision.

Just a side comment - 252 / SuperCap works very well with 250DR

Adam Zielinski posted:

alanbass1 posted:

I will audition a 272/XPS/250 DR against  NDX/282/SC/250 DR at my dealer using a basic configuration LP12 that they have and see where that takes me.

 

Good decision.

Just a side comment - 252 / SuperCap works very well with 250DR

I would agree with that comment worth a listen if you are going to have a demo of a 282 with a Supercap.

alanbass1 posted:

 

I will audition a 272/XPS/250 DR against  NDX/282/SC/250 DR at my dealer using a basic configuration LP12 that they have and see where that takes me.

 

NDX really needs an XPS.  In fact I'd invest in XPS before the SC for the 282.  Easy for your dealer to slot the XPS on the NDX for you.

Regards,

Lindsay 

alanbass1 posted:

Thanks for the replies. Regarding 'leaving the SU alone' I'm only potentially looking to make use of the SU as a stepping stone. Once I have got to my target system the SU will be reunited with the Neat Iota's in my guitar room.

 I do like the thought of keeping things nice and neat with a three box solution. If the analogue preamp section would bring the best out of my Roksan that would be a good way forward and will allow me to liberate the SU sooner.

Taking 'The Strats' post into account I think that a 252 is probably a bridge too far me, if only it starts to cause upgradeitis across the whole system including my recently purchased NAP 250 DR!

I will audition a 272/XPS/250 DR against  NDX/282/SC/250 DR at my dealer using a basic configuration LP12 that they have and see where that takes me.

 

Will you let us all know how you get on? I'm considering doing something similar although I might go as far as NDS but the principle is the same regarding the SU. I'm currently using my SU with a NAP 300dr. NDS, 555PS, 252 and SC is too much all in one go. 

Drewy posted:

alanbass1 posted:

Thanks for the replies. Regarding 'leaving the SU alone' I'm only potentially looking to make use of the SU as a stepping stone. Once I have got to my target system the SU will be reunited with the Neat Iota's in my guitar room.

 I do like the thought of keeping things nice and neat with a three box solution. If the analogue preamp section would bring the best out of my Roksan that would be a good way forward and will allow me to liberate the SU sooner.

Taking 'The Strats' post into account I think that a 252 is probably a bridge too far me, if only it starts to cause upgradeitis across the whole system including my recently purchased NAP 250 DR!

I will audition a 272/XPS/250 DR against  NDX/282/SC/250 DR at my dealer using a basic configuration LP12 that they have and see where that takes me.

 

Will you let us all know how you get on? I'm considering doing something similar although I might go as far as NDS but the principle is the same regarding the SU. I'm currently using my SU with a NAP 300dr. NDS, 555PS, 252 and SC is too much all in one go. 

NDS would be severely hobbled by the SU preamp, I fear. 

Yes it would Chris. I have no doubts about that. It would be interesting to see if there's much of an improvement though, at least enough to live with for 6 to 12 months. Maybe a trip to my dealer is in order. I'm not keen on making too many steps towards my goal. Every time you upgrade and trade something in you're losing money. 

Spookily enough, I am using a SU and recently serviced chrome bumper 250 in my guitar room too! - feeding an old pair of mk1 Shahinian Arcs.

I originally bought the SU as a solution for having music in my London flat during the week when I was away from the main system. In reality, it never produced a sound that was truly good enough for me to sit down in front of it as if at a concert, as most of us on the forum like to do. Possible the SU's 'failure' in that application was because the original Arcs were a really tough load. On paper,  it had the horsepower, but the field it just didn't work for me.

However, adding the 250 and using the SU as preamp as I now have upstairs is very different and sounds pretty darn good to my ears. So, ref the original question, I would say that adding a power amp to your SU certainly has the potential to improve your sound enough for your interim strategy to work for now. Try it at a dealer and see what you think?

kevin J Carden posted:

Spookily enough, I am using a SU and recently serviced chrome bumper 250 in my guitar room too! - feeding an old pair of mk1 Shahinian Arcs.

I originally bought the SU as a solution for having music in my London flat during the week when I was away from the main system. In reality, it never produced a sound that was truly good enough for me to sit down in front of it as if at a concert, as most of us on the forum like to do. Possible the SU's 'failure' in that application was because the original Arcs were a really tough load. On paper,  it had the horsepower, but the field it just didn't work for me.

However, adding the 250 and using the SU as preamp as I now have upstairs is very different and sounds pretty darn good to my ears. So, ref the original question, I would say that adding a power amp to your SU certainly has the potential to improve your sound enough for your interim strategy to work for now. Try it at a dealer and see what you think?

 

 

The op already has a 250 connected to the SU. He's wondering about connecting a better streamer to it so it acts as a preamp while he gets the funds together for a stand alone preamp

Apologies. My poor misread of original Q! Scratch that.

Given the massive change that appears to be happening in Naim regarding streamer architecture I'd be much more inclined to get a preamp if you really need to upgrade now, and use the SU as the streamer into a 282/250DR setup.

I think there is no doubt that the tech in the new Uniti series will change a lot of things in the very near future for Naim and I'd wait to hear reviews of this kit in the new year before making any decisions on a Naim digital front end

Penarth Blues posted:

Given the massive change that appears to be happening in Naim regarding streamer architecture I'd be much more inclined to get a preamp if you really need to upgrade now, and use the SU as the streamer into a 282/250DR setup.

The problem is that the SU has no line out, only a pre-out, which is post volume control.

Thanks again for the replies and the advice about waiting to see what the new streamer architecture brings in terms of SQ.  This actually makes me think that I should hold off, wait for reviews (even listen myself) to the new line of streamer products before making my decision.  If, as being implied, the Architecture of the new all-in-one range will move into the separates range either it will be an improvement worth holding out for, or, if not, cause the current range to be sold off at reduced prices.

The good thing is that I'm in no hurry and waiting for six months or so for all this to work through he distribution, marketing of potential new releases, etc, will give me the option of getting two (or more) components immediately of whatever target system I settle on.

6 months might be a bit optimistic!

Understand.  But the new all-in-one products will be available and should give an indication as to whether the new streamer architecture is a step forward in SQ or more a cosmetic make over for the style conscious.   If the former then it will be one of those how long can I wait moments........