LP12 - what to expect ...

Interesting question Allan. People would rave about the old Ekos on the standard sub and yet this would not be the path encouraged by Linn today. The current advice is power supply/sub, then arm and finally cartridge. Phono stage last.

Might be worth asking on their forum? I have Lingo 3, Kore, Akito 3 and Krystal. I should go Radikal/Keel next but also wonder if Ekos would be better. Linn are happy to put the Krystal with latest Akito but back in the day that would not have been the case.

Might be worth listening to a new Lingo/Kore/Akito (ie. Akurate LP12) against your deck with Ekos if you can. I did't like the Project arm myself so its a tempting place to start. You might also email Peter in the Midlands for his thoughts?

Stu

Morning Allan

couple of my reference albums London Grammar if you wait and also Peter Gabriel new 180 re mastered either Melt So or US

might be ugrading my LP12 soon, interested in your experience

Nothing wrong with the rest of your system, in my view. Others may disagree. You have some quite nice guitars too.

Its such a long time ago, that I upgraded the arm on my LP 12 - from a Rega R200 to a Linn Ittok - which is still installed. Clearly a bad move, as its never been changed....

The Ittok/Ekos is a very easy arm to use - so no worries there. The Ekos is essentially a 'Super Ittok' - again, I fully expect someone to second guess me on this, but whatever... Ekos because its made in Scotland - Ecosse - rather than in Japan (the Ittok I was told was made by Canon, for Linn). 

Sound wise, I would expect more detail and better bass - ? Looking up the Linn Krystal, it replaced the Klyde - so its quite a cartridge, I guess - which really ought to be in an Ekos. So, should be a no brainer, in my view. Have fun....

radikal first, kore/keel second, third arm, - that's what some die hard Linn folks tell you:-)

they see a vinyl spinner as a closed chain in itself...so start with the motor, than do the mechanical part, than the arm etc.

Morning Allan,

My own Linn (with Valhalla, Ittok LVII, Cirkus and MC) is substantially older than yours but similar. I'm going to address the motor next, so I am with those here who are also making that suggestion.

Regards, Chris

It's not so much a question of being 'die hard' as getting the biggest bang for you buck.  The Ekos is a fine piece of engineering and considerably more than a 'Suer Ittok'; but dollar for dollar you're going to get a better performance if you follow the recommended route and upgrade the power source and sub-chassis first.

With the best will in the world - there is little value in me telling you what to look or listen for; as Linn says: it's all about the tune. If the LP12 doesn't sound to you like it's worth the investment then it isn't.

Enjoy

Thanks all for your contributions.

Perhaps I should see if the dealer can have a radikal'ised LP12 to compare as well ...

... trouble is that you then get into too many variables

... aw what the heck just put the whole lot on - Radikal, Keel and Ekos

... did I just say that ... gulp

... what a double mullet I would have then at both ends of my system

... and what a hole in my bank account

I see what you are saying about VFM but then there is also the absolute increase (I hope) in SQ to consider.

Great to be retired and have time to think/worry about these things - don't think I'd get any work done if I was still at the mill

... and then you think, who cares, I'm away to put on another record

Allan

Hi Allen,

one more thing to consider: I have noticed a drop in groove and other noise when mechanical parts are upgraded. Tonearms have made big differences for me in the past, subchassis a little less. If you would like to improve these aspects, the Ekos should be a good Thing. The one I had several years ago surely was. A better PSU does other, but equally worthwile, things.

Allan,

The arm, Radikal and Keel all make a significant difference, but I'd go with the Keel first every time. Whereas the arm and Radikal undoubtably give great performance boost, the Keel changes the way the music is presented like no other.

I'd suggest not to listen to acoustic, beautifully mastered & great sounding lps. Listen to not so well recorded music like The Who - Won't Get Fooled Again, for example. Listen to see how upgrades deal with complex tracks. If you do listen to The Who track, hear how the Keel brings out that performance into the listening room around you. 

Allan,

Nothing wrong with the rest of the system.

My question is potentially more controversial - are you married to the LP12?   It just strikes me that the upgrades - Keel, Lingo, Radikal, EKOS are rather numerous.  Good in a way in that the original TT never becomes redundant but I think there are other alternatives out there.  Have you heard what a Rega RP8 or 10 can deliver - for example?

Regards,

Lindsay

Allan Milne posted:

... trouble is that you then get into too many variables

... aw what the heck just put the whole lot on - Radikal, Keel and Ekos

... did I just say that ... gulp

... what a double mullet I would have then at both ends of my system

... and what a hole in my bank account

 Allan

That's not as silly as it sounds Allan !   I had got to a point last year where my 1979 LP12 / Lingo / Ekos / Arkiv was well behind in upgrades, so I applied for one of those lovely 'zero percent interest for a couple of years' credit cards where you pay 3% upfront for the priviledge.  I talked to my dealer about a price reduction to cover this, and splashed out on a current spec LP!2.  I sold my aging one in that auction site for a reasonable sum (given the age and spec) and it's happy days.

I happened to get the Klinax model, but the principle would apply equally to lower cost options.  Your dilemma is then solved (for a while) and you have the best of all worlds.   BTW, if you should consider an alternative to the LP12, be prepared to live with your decision... as I'm sure you'll read elsewhere under headings like "Buyers remorse" 

I'd usually say 'hope this helps' but I think it might be one of those 'a step too far' suggestions... but I hope not.

Roger

Interesting observation, @Alan Milne, about all the potential upgrades and variation - and a radical (!!) suggestion from @RJStaines - sell it & start again.

There can easily be something of Grandfathers Axe, or Triggers Broom, about older LP12's - where almost nothing is left of the original. My LP12 was upgraded regularly, from 1981 until around 1988, when circumstances prevented anything further. Now the list of things 'wrong' with it is simply crazy - no Circus, no Keel, no Ekos, no Lingo, etc, etc. I considered going Cirkus, but it meant a change of the inner platter & bearing - which I thought was just too much. So, its just on care & maintenance now - and works no less badly than it ever did...... 

All rather 'anti Hi Fi' thinking - ? Maybe, but its far to easy to recommend people change this and that - I could recommend you go for a 282 - because its better than a 202..... If you 'must' change something LP12 wise, just do one item - then sir back, enjoy and buy more music. 

rjstaines posted:

  BTW, if you should consider an alternative to the LP12, be prepared to live with your decision... as I'm sure you'll read elsewhere under headings like "Buyers remorse" 

 

Yeah.

Good to hear from you all but still a little scarce in anything about *what* I should hear from the demo ..

Lindsay - stop it ... can't go through all that again Yep I did listen to those when I first bought the LP12 and to me the latter won out so now its just evolution, not revolution.

Roger - my dealer actually talked me out of going to the climax, he knows me and quite rightly pointed out that starting from Majik and going up would be more fun - and he is right. In fact I'm not even sold on going any further since what I hear is so good at present and hence the demo ... to try and convince me, myself, I that I can actually hear any difference; I'm not sure my ears are that good

Thanks all and I hope more keeps coming,

Allan

I'm unsure as to what you should hear in the dem. But I hope you would feel more engaged with the music.

C.

Hi Christoper,

I'm never quite sure what being "engaged" with the music means; as discussed in many other threads, using English to discuss what we hear is so difficult isn't it?

When my son comes home he has to listen to my system for a while before he "gets into it" since it is so different from what he is used to ... but we find it difficult to identify in words what this difference is ...  detail, balance, ... or what?

I do enjoy the ability to hear each different instrument/voice in a decently sized sound stage but don't know if there is more of this to be had or something new that comes along. I just want to feel that the artist is right there and not at the end of some production pipeline ... maybe that is what "engaged" means?

I do know that what I would like is more 3D depth in the soundstage but I think this may be more about production values in the mixing rather than the ability of the HiFi so not high on my expectation list.

Anyway, I'll find out soon enough,

Allan

Interesting the comment about comparing to an RP8 / RP10 - that's exactly what I'm doing on Saturday. Currently have an RP8 so going to listen to an RP10 vs med spec LP12.

Allan Milne posted:

I'm never quite sure what being "engaged" with the music means; as discussed in many other threads, using English to discuss what we hear is so difficult isn't it?

Absolutely Allan, I'm a bit the same and hesitated slightly before my engagement reply.

Chris

Like to hear the rega shootout results I am looking for a good but simple turntable solution, so everything but LP12 upgrade this and that and setup etc

For me its difficult to articulate what engaged means... It's more about how it makes you feel..

Some years ago i replaced my aging Musical Fidelity amplification with Naim (NAC282, HiCap, 250.2).

Thru this i was playing an LP12 (Lingo 1, Ekos2, Arkiv B, standard subchassis). This with a Stageline powered by a Flatcap2. Over time I began to feel the LP12 was not as "engaging" (for want of a better word) although the CD player (CD5) was much improved. I never doubted the amplification but began to doubt the Stageline.

Although Keel was the next logical step I still felt that would be adding extra capability that would be held back by the Stageline.

To cut a long story short I ultimately replaced the aging Arkiv B with an Akiva... improvement sure but still not enough.  Then I tried a Uphorik with the LP12...   to me the difference was like night and day... as if a damn had burst. Then I FELT engaged.

Ultimately I replaced the Lingo 1 with a Radikal and also a Urika... And it sounds sublime..

Keel is next up but but other upgrades this year (282 serviced, HiCap serviced  and DR'd, 250.2 part exchanged for 250DR, Full Fat Fraim, CDX2+XPSDR) mean it will have to wait until the financial controller approves the funds. 

Hi Allan

These are not easy questions to answer - I have gone from Basik+, to Ittok, to Ekos on my LP12, but I also have some of the other upgrades and what has done what is difficult to say now. If I were you, I would go with no preconceptions and just trust your ears.

I would take a variety of LPs - and take more than you will have time to listen to - I have found that in those listening circumstances I might suddenly think - 'I wonder what so and so would sound like'. Amongst your choice I would certainly take some that you know really well and maybe something you have bought recently that is less familiar, but which you have been enjoying. I don't know what your taste is, but go for a variety of the genres that you listen to regularly. Then you might think about a singer whose voice moves you and a virtuoso instrumentalist to see if the playing seems more expressive.

As you listen, you'll certainly hear if the Ekos is doing something new, different and better than what you are used to.

Good luck

Clive

Allan,

We all listen in so many different ways.  Sometimes we concentrate on sounds we hear and notice differences in "bass" or "image" or individual voices or instruments.  (While differences may be easy to notice, it may not be obvious whether one or the other is "better" unless we know how the recording "should" sound).  Another way to listen is to take in the whole of a musical performance, noting the harmony and rhythm of the musicians and the "message" or "feel" of the musical piece.  For me the latter approach is usually more informative, and "better" is when the musical performance is more convincing.  I feel "engaged" when I forget to listen for the details and the HiFi because my mind is distracted by the musical performance.

Charlie

Alan - quite a journey made and quite a journey to come. I never had a stageline, moved from a very cheap NAD ??? to a Linn Linto hence Ureka is bottom of my list of things to do Isn't it hard to identify just what it is that made your LP12 sing other than stating what components you changed, you just know its better (or different) Secret with the financial controller is to write the cost down bujt don't put in the comma or the pence - then it looks a hundred times cheaper !

Clive - thanks for some good advice, I shall follow it.

Allan

I have done something only this week that is very similar to what you are intending. I upgraded to an Ittok over an old Akito and the improvements are huge in every aspect in short it was extremely obvious how much better the Ittok was. I have no idea how your arm compares (I presume it is a Project arm) to my earlyish Akito  but if the Ekos is better it should scream its superiority. Like others have said take familiar albums with you and its my guess that the Ekos will show its superiority very quickly infact I would be very disappointed to hear it didn't! 

Hi WiltshireMan,

Thanks for this; can you describe what those improvements are in terms of the sound?

Allan