Streaming newbie Qs and...
Posted by: KTMax on 27 July 2011
Hi All,
I've been out of this Naim asylum for a while. Basically just enjoying my Naim rig (CDX2/282/Hi-C/Hi-L/NAT05/200/Cardas/NBS/Sonus Faber Guarneri Memento's).
Recently I've switched over from Windows to all Apple around the house and playing with iTunes & stuff, streaming got my interest again. The ease of use and Jukebox kind of fun is quite appealing to me although so far various streamers didn't impress me much on SQ.
I'm eyeballing the NDX now but reading through some topics here in the streaming section makes my head spin. Reads like a computer forum indeed!
From what I've read so far, lossless WAV files seem the way to go? Woking with Apple, iTunes is able to rip WAV files or does this leave things to be desired?
Is the optional FM/DAB module for the NDX on par or better than the NAT05 tuner for FM?
Richard
PS, this morning I ripped a CD to WAV with iTunes and hooked up my MacBook Pro to the 282. Gosh that was a scare... sounds awful. 
I'm totally new to Naim and streaming too and this is my first post here, but I can answer some of your questions!
There is another thread here on the first page of these threads discussing wav vs flac. Some hear differences, some don't. Personally, I have a lot of flac files already, and a few .m4a Apple lossless files. If I end up buying the UnitiServ, I will be happy that it will play both formats and some time in the future experiment to see if I hear differences.
The only "issue" to me about wav files is that they are large compared to other "lossless" formats such as Apple lossless and flac. But nowadays storage isn't an issue and so that shouldn't deter you.
I would ABSOLUTELY expect a ripped wav file played from a Macbook directly to your 282 to sound horrid. You are using the Macbook to do d/a conversion, etc etc. Do not let that deter you, as that is not what any of us consider to be hi fi "computer music." The next step would be to take a digital output from the Mac into an outboard high quality dac; that is a very common setup and one I've considered.
But I'm thinking about foregoing the Mac approach and just spending the money on a UnitiServ.
Hi Richard - and welcome Bert -
1) ITunes can rip WAV files perfectly, its drawback is that it can't read or write ID3 tags into the WAV file which is not ideal if creating a store of ripped files for playback via a hard disk or uPNP streamer.
2) WAV puts less strain on the renderer than FLAC as less processing is required. More processing equals more 'digital noise' and its impacts. Good implementations arguably should minimise the affect of any additional processing. I have found however NDX on its own FLAC is less enjoyable than WAV, if feeding the NDX into an nDAC and the NDX is well settled in, the differences are neglible or non consequential to me.
3) I have only seen one report on these forums commenting on the NDX/ FM/DAB module compared to a NAT, and it was not particuarly favourable in terms of sonic quality. It would appear the FM module output is digitsed and and then converted back to analogue which is not ideal compared to a direct anlogue signal from a NAT.
Simon
Recently I've switched over from Windows to all Apple around the house and playing with iTunes & stuff, streaming got my interest again. The ease of use and Jukebox kind of fun is quite appealing to me although so far various streamers didn't impress me much on SQ.
That is bad timing. Macs dont do streaming very well unless using Airplay (guessing) or an Airport/AppleTV.
The streaming protocol used in EVERYONE else's gear (Naim), is not easy to use on a Mac.
Do yourself a favor and buy either a Naim Server or a cheap PC.
Sorry,
Patrick
iTunes is able to rip WAV files or does this leave things to be desired?
Yes, it would leave tags to be desired. iTunes will be a MESS with WAVs.
-p
Thanks for the replies all.
What the problem with WAV and tags then? I've ripped a few CDs to WAV and all info about the atist, tracks, cover art seems to come through fine?
For the experiment I used a Chord cable from the Mac's mini-jack to the RCA Aux2 input on the 282. Ouch.. Surely the simple, budget Mac DAC is the issue here. But I didn't expected it to sound that bad.
When I bought my current rig I did extensive testing and comparing between the HDX and CDX2 and the CDX won hands down on SQ without a fight. I heard the two back to back 2 days ago and nothing has changed (obviously). The HDX still sounds tighter, more controlled but also more clinical and lifeless next to the CDX2. So more than two years on, my ears still hear the same. That's good! It does take a very good setup to make these differences clear though.
But now I see streaming as a fun extra and not instead of, what was my initial approach.
I'm thinking about the NDX + a 4 TB raid NAS (LaCie). iTunes to rip CDs and manage the library on the NAS. The NAS Ethernet wired to the NDX and operated via iPhone & iPad with the Naim App. Would something like this work and make sense?...
Richard.
If you post a small WAV you have created, I can decompile it and confirm for you exactly what is in it.
Simon
I'm thinking about the NDX + a 4 TB raid NAS (LaCie). iTunes to rip CDs and manage the library on the NAS. The NAS Ethernet wired to the NDX and operated via iPhone & iPad with the Naim App. Would something like this work and make sense?...
Richard.
Hi Richard -
If you are ripping to WAV, and if the LaCie has a built-in UPnP server that works well, then yes, this could be a fine setup!
Do you already own the LaCie? If not, then it would be worth checking out their competition: QNAP, Synology, and so on. Also, many of us have found Asset to be the best of breed in UPnP service, which then limits your choice of NAS to those few running WHS -- RipNAS, Asset NAS, and maybe one or two others.
Alternatively, you could go with a two-box solution: pick any NAS like LaCie, then add a cheap PC to do nothing but run Asset. That is what I am currently doing, and it is working very well with my NDX. And control via the iPad/N-Stream, while missing a couple of desirable features, is very good: excellent response time and very reliable.
Good luck!
Hook
Why would you choose LaCie? Not the best of choice from the little I have heard. I'd go with the more established players in the filed, WD, Synology, QNap, Asset/Rip Nas, etc.
No reason to choose LaCie. A well known name and I saw they offer iTunes Server with/on the NAS's that's all.
What are considered to be the best NAS's for streaming? Taking into account it needs to live in a Apple Mac environment.
@Simon: thank you for your offer. I'll try to do that as I'm curious what the trouble with WAV tagging is (when done via iTunes).
Richard.
Since you’ve expressed interest in getting a NDX, here’s my experience so far on a Mac-based system and I hope it will help answer some of your questions.
By way of background, I’d been streaming FLAC files from an iMac with a Squeezebox for some years into a non-Naim DAC which was connected to a 282/250.2 system. I started with a Windows system, but I’ve gradually migrated to Macs over the last few years leaving only a single PC.
About a year ago, I started to re-rip into Apple Lossless (ALAC) in anticipation of using the Squeezebox iTunes interface for greater ease in organizing playlists etc with iTunes rather than with Squeezebox server. Thus before I got the NDX some months ago, my music collection was in FLAC and ALAC and I decided that I would use these with the NDX as I didn’t want to re-rip or convert to WAV.
I initially tried to stream from my iMac with various Mac UPnP solutions but eventually decided that it would be best to get a NAS. After some research, I settled on a Synology NAS which comes with built-in UPnP and more importantly, can transcode among others, ALAC, AIFF and FLAC files.
Set up following the manual was quite straight-forward. Transcoding (which is disabled by default) had to be enabled. A significant improvement over streaming from the iMac is the reduction in lag when using the n-stream app. Adding a switch to isolate the NAS / NDX from the router seemed to improve the sound slightly. I experimented with RFI chokes, but they didn’t seem to make any discernible difference in my system.
I use the audio software supplied with the NAS to create playlists. It seems to work like iTunes, with the option to create Smart Playlists although the number of fields available is limited. It would be nice if I could import my iTunes playlists - I don’t know if this is possible, but if it is, I’ve yet to find out how to do it.
Like others, I find the NDX does not play FLAC very well. There seems to be some harshness, whether transcoded before reaching the NDX, streamed directly to the NDX or from a USB stick. Hence I am only using my ALAC files, the only issue being the need to convert some of the very high bit rate ones (more than 1200 kbps) to AIFF because they can’t seem to play otherwise.
You asked about the FM/DAB module. I’ve never heard a NAT so can’t compare with that, but FM seems on par with my old Denon TU-260 tuner. DAB has been disabled as only a few stations are available here and quality is clearly inferior to FM. On the other hand, iRadio is great allowing me to receive the internet radio stations I previously got via Squeezebox.
In summary, although a bit pricier than other options, I’ve found the Synology easy to set up and use with my ALAC files without having to convert or re-rip the large number of tracks I now have. Given my limited knowledge about computers, this has also been very useful as it has allowed me to get on with listening to music with little fuss.
I can’t say how good the Synology is compared to other NAS, I’ve never tried anything else and there may well be other better brands, but if you’re in a similar position, it seems worthwhile to explore a NAS with built-in UPnP as others have suggested.
Sorry if you find the post too long, but hope it helps.
I sure have some more browsing and ready to do...
Hi KTMax, sorry to side track. May i know if your NAP200 have any difficulties driving the Guarneri Memotos? How do you find the sound?
Hi KTMax, sorry to side track. May i know if your NAP200 have any difficulties driving the Guarneri Memotos? How do you find the sound?
Hi Nexsky, no not at all. It drives the Guarneri's with ease and matches very well with them. It's a very balanced combo that I clearly favored over the 250 that I had at home too for a week before making the choice.
I currently have 282/200/Hi-CAP/CDX22 with a pair of Cremona auditor M. I have the chance to get the memento at a good price thus considering jumping on it. It is a relieve to know that the NAP200 is able to drive the memento nicely.
Since this is off-track, can you provide me your email address so i can continue the discussion? Thanks and have a nice day.
Hi Nexsky, is there a PM function on this forum? I'm not looking to get flooded with spam & sh*t from putting my email on a forum like this... 
i don't think there is any PM function. Sigh.
Hi Nexsky, is there a PM function on this forum? I'm not looking to get flooded with spam & sh*t from putting my email on a forum like this...
Hi, please email me at neski@ymail.com Hope to hear from you soon.