272 or NDX with a XS-2

If getting the 272 I would sell the XS2 and get a used non DR 200 for under £1,000, which may well be less than you'd get for your Nait. You'd have a new improved system straight away.

If you don't want to do that, I'd get an NDX and later upgrade to a Supernait 2. This would of course cost more and would mean that you had an element of redundancy in the XS2 for two years. 

Den83 posted:

Hello everyone,

I know that there are lots of posts on whether or not the 272 is better than NDX/ND5 with NAC202 and NAP200 but my situation is a bit different.

I currently own an XS-2 and i have the opportunity to get a second hand NDX / 272 at roughly the same price.

I would NOT be able to upgrade anything else for at least 2 years so lets leave that out of the equation (and i don't see myself ever owning more than 2-3 boxes).

My question is which would provide me the best sound :

• NDX + XS-2
• 272 + XS-2 as a poweramp

 As far as i understand the ndx dac is a bit better than the 272 but the preamp part of the 272 is way better than the one from the XS-2...

Has anyone ever tried this ?

Cheers

OK, the 272 option is what I do: ... sort of.

If you look at my profile, you'll see the units I use (including the NAC-N 272, power supplies and the Nait XS 2 used as a power-amp).  I can confirm that the pre-amp section of the 272 is so much better than the Nait XS; and is still way better than the Nait even if you put an external power supply on the Nait.

In my opinion the NDX is slightly better than the streamer / DAC section of the NAC-N 272, but the increase in quality of the pre-amp above the Nait is much more significant than the difference between the NDX and the 272.

On balance and experience I'd agree with HH's assessment, that the best option is to sell the Nait and get a NAC-N 272 and a used NAP 200.  The NAP 200 will also make a better job of driving the PMC 20.23's than the power-amp in the Nait, so you win both ways.
(This also leads to a simple single upgrade of adding a XPSDR to the 272, giving a very nice system in the future - that upgrade's well worth it when you can afford to do it, and a NAP 200 will show the benefit here.)

There's also a caveat about using the Nait as a power-amp only (i.e. you'd actually need to get a used Flatcap as well).  It's also worth noting that I intend to upgrade my power-amp from the Nait to a NAP 200 or a NAP 250DR, dependent on the outcome of auditions.

Huge, I don't want to be picky, but one can use the XS as a power amp with a 272 without needing a Flatcap. You just remove the link plug, connect the 272 and program the XS. At least, that's what the manual says. 

Err, I thought so too 'til I tried that with an XS 2 - didn't work.  The first stage of the XS 2's power-amp is powered by the pre-amp supply rail connected to the 24v input pin on the socket for the link plug.  Believe me, I've tried it both ways.

I don't doubt you, though it seems odd that the manual doesn't mention it. Did you tell Naim about the issue?

I haven't told Naim, I believe that they do know about it.

Looking at the manual for the XS 2, I can't see anything that indicates how to connect the amp for use as a power amp only - this may be different from that for the older XS model.

My suggestion is to find a helpful dealer and listen to some 2 or 3 box systems that you might like to end up with, so that you have something to aim for. Then you can upgrade one box at a time as funds allow, knowing that you will end up with a system that works well for you. I went through that process last year, and for what it's worth, found that I consistently preferred NDX based systems to 272, but of course, you should draw your own conclusions on that by listening. 

I do agree - N272 + power amp is a good combo.

There is one advantage to NDX though - it can be upgraded with an external DAC. A combination of NDX + nDAC (even without an external PSU) is a seriously good one. Adding a non-DR 555PS (which can be had for half the price of a new XPSDR) to the nDAC takes the NDX+nDAC combo dangerously close to the NDS territory (OK - still sounds better, but it's not night and day - just a bit different).

Huge posted:

There's also a caveat about using the Nait as a power-amp only (i.e. you'd actually need to get a used Flatcap as well).  

Huge, this is strange... I've never heard something like that. They don't specify that in the manual...

Thanks everyone for their input.

Like i said, i don't see myself ever owning more than 2-3 boxes. So the NDX + NDAC + PSU + NAC + PSU + NAP .... is out of the question

My endpoint would be something like 272 / PSU / 200 (or 250) OR NDX / PSU (or a DAC like a HUGO) / SUPERNAIT2.

I've already listened to the NDX (in my current setup at home) but never to the 272 and i don't see myself going to my dealer and asking for a demo when i know pretty well i won't be buying from him...

The 272 seems the most cost effective step but not sure the sound signature will suit me since most people find it more "airy" than the NDX which is on the "warmer/rounder" side (which i usually prefer).

Hello, like Huge said..

xs2+ndx -> smooth, warmer, rounder then that's the way, you can live many years with that combo, after you can upgrade to sn2 or sn3(who knows)...

or

272+xs2..., take 272 in consideration only if you think you will upgrade power...xs2->200/250/300...it's better to stay with naim ranges.   

Den83 - you seem to be overthinking it, especially when it comes to supposed sonic signatures of streamers. Especially the ones you have not heard.

If you need to compromise on the box count than let this be your guiding criteria. Regardless what you choose it will still sound like NAIM.

I have no idea of what this 'airy' sound signature is supposed to be. I own a 272 and have heard an NDX and both sound very good to me, and I've certainly not noticed the 272 making Nirvana sound like a Bach Partita. Just go with whichever option you fancy. 

I might be overthinking it but when i'm about to spend a large amount of money, i don't think it's a bad thing

And ok, i take back the "airy", i've got no idea how the 272 sounds like... Not always easy to express yourself in a language that is not yours... It's just that from what i've read, people tend to find the NDX warmer than the 272...

Thanks again for the feed back.

Nothing wrong with overthinking if you are going to spending a large amount, but personally i'd listen myself and let that be the final arbiter. All naim kit tends to have the same sound signature so you won't go far wrong which ever way you decide to go. 

James

Den,

The ND5 XS, streamer/DAC section of the NAC-N 272, and NDX have almost identical overall sonic signatures.

The difference in overall sonic comes in the pre-amp and power-amp where the SN2 sounds warmer and more powerful than the XS 2.

The 272 with the XS 2 power-amp increases the solidity of the bass compared to the ND5 XS and goes some way toward the overall sound signature of the SN2, but carries more detail, discrimination and finer sonic nuance.

I can't speak for the combination of a 272 with a NAP; but I suspect with a NAP 250DR, it'll give the best of both worlds.

I'll chime in, if excluding upgradability, a lot of this will be about matching and synergy. The pre on the 272 will be optimised to sound best with its own DAC. Using a more capable DAC such as a Hugo or NDAC/555 might result in minimal or no improvements because of the 'limiting' factor of the 272  preamp, although presentation balance might change with no real overall SQ benefit.

The NDX and even more so the Hugo, NDAC/555 and NDS/555 will give better performances with more capable preamps such as the 282 and higher and so will give a greater audio performance overeall  - depending on the rest of the system... but for diminishing returns

So ultimately it boils down to how much you want to spend and what sort of audio replay experience you want. Clearly the 272 is a popular option for many and I suspect for some/many? that is sufficient for all their audio replay needs. If however you like the Mandelbrot effect of listening into your music as opposed to listening to your music you will almost certainly need higher specification equipment... I did.

I've been looking up Mandelbrot and it seems to be about complex maths. What exactly is the Mandelbrot effect of listening into music?

Maybe I've got cloth ears, but I really cannot tell a significant difference between the 272 and the NDX/282, certainly in terms of the enjoyability of music, whether listened to or into. 

Anyway, 282 options aren't on the cards for the OP.

Great question   The Mandelbrot set is special set of complex numbers that are bounded [f(z) = z² + c ] where z is a sequence of complex numbers. When the complex numbers are visualised in a matrix they reveal patterns of ever increasing details - and depending on the values of z can iterate for ever. The visualisations can resemble natural and organic patterns such as organic noise, ferns, coastal erosion, human urbainization  - or simply make whacky patterns

I use it in the example here to describe the effect of listening into the music - a bit like at an acoustic concert  - and your more you listen in the more your notice. In my experience the better the system and speaker /room matching and to some extent the recording - the better you sense this

A wiki on the Mandelbrot set is here - and can explain it far better than I ever can

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mandelbrot_set

Got it - it's simply your interpretation of the effect as it applies to music i.e. The more you listen, the more you hear. 

It sound like there's a PhD in there somewhere - musical information and the Mandelbrot effect: rationalisation of the differentials of objective and subjective criteria. 

Simon-in-Suffolk posted:

The visualisations can resemble natural and organic patterns such as organic noise, ferns, coastal erosion, human urbainization  - or simply make whacky patterns

 

That takes me back ! - I remember getting my BBC Model B to generate Mandelbrot patterns. Took bloody hours for it to build the picture ...

Hungryhalibut posted:

Got it - it's simply your interpretation of the effect as it applies to music i.e. The more you listen, the more you hear.

It's not a great analogy really.

If you do something repetitively, over time your brain wIll fill in the gaps. Like driving a car for example, it's a mixture of conscious and learned behaviour. Listening to the same LP over and over again will do the same, you'll actually be listening less overall.

DEN83

i can't answer your question directly but I will add my 2p anyway!

Like HH I have a 272 based system, 272/XPS2/250.2, it's a very very nice place to be especially with only 3 boxes. I've come down slightly from a 282 in some ways but the convenience and form factor have made the system very accessible to the whole family. More music played has got to be a very good thing.

I would personally go for a 272/200 if you could stretch, with a view to an XPS2 in the future. I'm confused by the XS power situation needing a flat cap. I still don't quite understand how that's the case as the 272 has a built in power supply.

Jay

Jay, I don't think that is what HH and certainly I meant. 

I was describing the effect of listening into and noticing andappreciating subtlety and nuance.. you notice things if you listen for them, like the breath control or movement with respect of a mic of a singer, the fingering of a guitar, the pressure of a pianist, the clipping distortion effect of sample riff join in EDM, the reverb and gating used on snare drum by the engineer.  You can listen casually or with less capable equipment and you don't notice it and really you can't hear it even if you try unless obvious ... you've maxed your iterations on your Mandelbrot set as it were... you have hit a solid colour.

For me this is a really great part of enjoying recorded music .. there is so much more than what is immediately obvious, and good replay equipment can give you this added enjoyment (if of course you want it to) .. it makes (most) tracks come alive rather than sounding as a sterile repetitive facsimile  of a piece of music

Yes, that's exactly what I thought Simon meant. While Simon uses the Mandelbrot analogy it is simply another way of describing the fact that as you improve the system you can hear more into the music, which tends to make it more interesting and engaging. But take it too far into one of those ultra detailed setups that some audiophiles get very excited about, where you can pick out each instrument in space and hear when the second violin picks their nose, and it gets distracting and reduces enjoyment. Overall I'd say that if you get what you can afford, and what works for you, you'll be a happy bunny.