matching B&W 804d2 to 272/250dr

ChrisSU posted:

Let us know your findings - it's always good to hear opinions based on actual listening rather than conjecture.

Second here, very interested in your findings.

I'm with TWINSLAVER on this one, I had the same system driving 804's, the 250 could drive them, but they really didn't come to life. when I changed to Proac's the 250-2 was in it's element, superb combination.

The 804's are great speakers, I wouldn't drive them with anything less than a 300, and better still a 500 to really make them come to life.

ChrisSU posted:

Petersfi posted:

Presently listening to 272/250dr on demo. First impression, big improvement on vinyl, hi rez files and tidal not so much.

is the streamer and preamp on the 272 that much better than the superuniti?

 

Why not connect the 250DR to your Superuniti, then you'll know for sure.

I'm interested to hear what you think too. I don't think the difference is as great as people think. 

I wonder if a 300dr on a Superuniti is better than a 250dr on a 272.

Tried to hook up the 250dr to superuniti without success.

this is problematic if naim wishes to retain a client. Blew off apple for the same nonsense

In what way did it not work? With the correct cable you should be able to connect to the pre-out. It should work in the same way that you would connect it to a 202 or 282? it is not an uncommon configuration.. There is a menu called speakers in the setup, you select what your configuration is. You need to change it from internal to external. The other options are "all outputs" which leaves internal and external amp enabled and internal only. When set to external the internal amp is disabled.

might the analog out of the SU need to be enabled via menu?

S.

Petersfi posted:

Tried to hook up the 250dr to superuniti without success.

this is problematic if naim wishes to retain a client. Blew off apple for the same nonsense

It does help to read a manual....

sections:

2.4.2

4.4

Main section: 5.4

Ahh yes. I forgot to mention you need a hicap or maybe a one off lead from naim? Maybe that comparison might not happen (unless you borrow a hicap from your dealer?)

No you don't. You just plug the 250 into the back of the SU with the wire that comes with the 250. Turn the SU's internal amp off and its analogue output on and you are good to go. 

Hungryhalibut posted:

No you don't. You just plug the 250 into the back of the SU with the wire that comes with the 250. Turn the SU's internal amp off and its analogue output on and you are good to go. 

Oops sorry. I had 300 in my mind. Everyone ignore my comment.

272/250DR (no XPSDR yet) driving Sopra 2, v.happy.

Dan43 posted:

272/250DR (no XPSDR yet) driving Sopra 2, v.happy.

Nice combination,  just wait until you get the xpsdr...

Peter, I don't think you will have any trouble driving 804D's with a 250, DR or not. I drove my old 803S initially with Arcam amps from the old diva range with less grunt than a 250. All the models mentioned have the same sensitivity 90Db spl and are a fairly easy load. It's just with better electronics you get better sound. I think your choices come back to a point Alan made initially. Where are you heading and can you anticipate your end point. If pushing one box a little up the ladder knowing you intend to upgrade the others  is in play, I would recommend you reach for the 300DR. Not to be able to drive your speakers but the 300DR is a great end point and "better" than the 250DR. You will also avoid the 272/250 owners club membership.

The D2 series was very good. I have only in the last 2 weeks replaced my 803S with the newer 802D3. Having demo'd many speakers, it taught me that the old ones were actually still pretty good. It was driving mine with 552/500 in the end but they had been the only speakers I used from 282, to 252 to 552; and 300 to 500. Not sure what type of fish a 272/300DR/804D2 would be. Tasty I expect.  

I would also verify another of Alan's points between D2 and D3. I listened to both 802D3 and 800D2 recently back to back. The D3's were clearly superior. You can pencil in D3's for the future knowing that the 300 will deliver on all counts. Good luck and let us know what you chose.

Dave

Ok gents thanks for the advice.  SU up and running as preamp for 250dr. Will do some critical listening this evening and report back. 

Bodger posted:

 All the models mentioned have the same sensitivity 90Db spl and are a fairly easy load.

Dave

 

I don't agree, sensitivity and easy load don't always go hand in hand, not that it matters to the OP, he may love the sound of the combination, but based on the professional review and measured performance, and my own experience, the 804d's are not a fairly easy load.

Below is from the review by Stereophile.

The SU is underpowered for the 804d's. I can trip out the heat sensor playing at volume 50 in less than an hour.

Peter

n.b. I've stopped doing that!

badlands posted:

Bodger posted:

 All the models mentioned have the same sensitivity 90Db spl and are a fairly easy load.

Dave

 

I don't agree, sensitivity and easy load don't always go hand in hand, not that it matters to the OP, he may love the sound of the combination, but based on the professional review and measured performance, and my own experience, the 804d's are not a fairly easy load.

Below is from the review by Stereophile.

The plot of the 804 Diamond's impedance magnitude and phase against frequency is shown in fig.1. The speaker is a moderately difficult load for the partnering amplifier to drive. Not only does its impedance reach a minimum value of 3 ohms at 108Hz, there is a combination of 4.5 ohms and a 53° capacitive phase angle at 72Hz, and the impedance remains below 4 ohms for much of the midrange and the top octave.
Read more at stereophile.

So Badlands, how does the cut and paste techno babble sort out the 250 concern?

BODGER,

Read the posts before you spew uneducated responses.

badlands posted:

BODGER,

Read the posts before you spew uneducated responses.

Badlands,

You are probably correct that sensitivity is not a perfect measure of load. My point being that all 3 speakers mentioned had the same figure might tell us something. As Allan Milne and I drove similar “load” (sensitivity) speakers with the 250 or lower, that should provide reassurance to the OP.

To be honest I have no idea how to interpret impedance and phase against frequency plots or understand the significance of the combination of 4.5 ohms and a 53deg capacitive phase angle at 72Hz. I pretty sure I am not alone on this forum of being in this state of technical ignorance. If you could translate this back into the real world question if does the 250 have enough grunt for the 804, that would move the discussion forward.

Dave

After a few days with the 272/250dr , The electronics improve the 804s substantially. Bass response now...., percussion much more punchy and bit more of a soundstage. Surprised how well vinyl plays back.

Buying these components effectively doubles the investment in the sound system, but does not double the sound.

i connected the SU as pre-amp for the 250dr, and saw much of the improvement in percussion as noted earlier, but not the bass or soundstage. May buy them anyway, but Allens earlier point about setting up an upgrade path has me thinking.....

again all, thanks for your input,

Petersfi posted:

After a few days with the 272/250dr , The electronics improve the 804s substantially. Bass response now...., percussion much more punchy and bit more of a soundstage. Surprised how well vinyl plays back.

Buying these components effectively doubles the investment in the sound system, but does not double the sound.

i connected the SU as pre-amp for the 250dr, and saw much of the improvement in percussion as noted earlier, but not the bass or soundstage. May buy them anyway, but Allens earlier point about setting up an upgrade path has me thinking.....

again all, thanks for your input,

 

 

Peter,

For what it's worth:

For me, the overall sound stage is very much determined by the speakers, much less by the power amp. I started with NAP250 + 804D2, currently NAP250 + 802D2 (plus 172XS and later 272). I found the improvement from 804D2 to 802D2 significant using the same 250.

Admittedly, I have not tested a 300 or 500 with the 802D2, as I'm happy with the 250. Once it shut in automatically (overheat protection) when running prolonged at 60% output of the 272 at a heavy party, but for normal use the combination is fine for me.

If you have the choice, you may consider the new 803D3 with the 250, rather than upgrading the power amp.

Worth a great deal, thanks Bert.

if the SU cant get the most out of the 804d2s, adding more demanding 803d's would still leave room for improvement. I'm not sure my room presently is suitable for a speaker upgrade, not the dimensions..the neighbours. I can see though that the SU 803s3 combo would likely be an improvement over 272/250dr 804d2. Its a slippery slope...

peter

Hello Peter,

First ask yourself what you are after with a speaker upgrade - in my case it was not volume, I barely have my pre above 9 o'clock - for me it was about bass extension, mid-range detail and overall coherence, often at lower listening levels.

I wouldn't say that the 803D3 were any harder to drive than my old 803S or even my older B&W stand-mounters. the 250DR is certainly capable of driving them to ear-hurting levels.

Also you have to look at VFM - the 803D3 are very expensive and I only got them as a retirement present to myself, they can be considered a mullet in my system (taking up over 1/3 of the overall value) but I love them

As I said before in some post, my dealer indicated the new numbers were almost one below the old model numbers - i.e. 803D3 comparable to old 802, 805D3 to old 804, etc - only hearsay and 1 opinion but worth bearing in mind.

As always with speakers, a home demo with your own kit is a must.

Allan

I'm joining this a tad late, but here's my experience, for what it's worth. 

I moved from 200 - 804s to 250 - 804s to 250 - 804d to 300 - 804d to 300dr - 804d.

The key change was replacing the 200 with the 250. It's true that these speakers need an amp that can "grip" them and control the bass. The 250 did that to the extent I was able to remove the foam bungs from the ports. The upgrades that followed were fantastic, but they were what I expected, given they involved great components at considerable expense (the dr upgrade is amazing). However, I would avoid anything less than the 250 with these speakers. No doubt, the 250dr is even better. Also, the 804d is in different league to the 804s, so perhaps my experience is out of date.

I would love to upgrade to the current speakers. Sadly, I don't have room for the 803d which look, and no doubt sound, very cool so I would be restricted to a sideways move. If the previous speaker upgrade is anything to go by then it won't be sideways.

Keith

Keith,

What is your view on the SQ improvement with your last move from 300 to 300DR?

I may consider upgrading from 250 to 250DR.