Interesting Linn and Naim price points?

The first bloodhound has arrived, salivating 

I understand you want to keep your UnitiServe for obvious reasons. 
Feeding it into an nDAC is a very good proposition.
The next one is turbo-charging the nDAC - here I would recommend that you find a pre-loved non-DR model. Even have it serviced at, say, Class A. I recently did that and essentially have a new 555PSU for a princly sum of GBP 2600.

As to a pre-amp. I'm firmly in the 252 / SCDR camp.
It will work a treat with the nDAC and also your soon-to-be-turbo-charged LP12 will fit in beautifully.

If you love NAIM, I'd give LINN electronics a miss. The presentation is somewhat different - I found it more sterile, a bit on a dry side.

Adam

Thanks Adam,

It is ok if you're only salivating... 

I have read your thoughts before about your preference for a non-DR 555 and will bear this in mind, has the great merit of reducing the price as well

The LP12 may not be getting turboed after all - I am considering my position as I've had another couple of near misses with the cartridge (already had to replace 2 this year) and am also getting a little weary of the crackle and pops even with well-looked after vinyl - I'll never get rid of it since it still is close to my heart but my head is telling me to put the effort into the digital side.

I hear what you say about the Linn but I will be giving it a listen anyway - heck you got to live dangerously.

Allan

Moderated Post:  Allan, I've made a minor edit, lest anyone take offence.

Allan Milne posted:

 

 

I hear what you say about the Linn but I will be giving it a listen anyway

Allan

Best way. Linn must be doing something right. 

Allan Milne posted:

 

 

Moderated Post:  Allan, I've made a minor edit, lest anyone take offence.

That's ok - I didn't mind the original entry at all found it hillarious - even contemplating the mechanics of it was difficult though and I nearly fell of my couch trying to do it.

Allan Milne posted:

 

 

The LP12 may not be getting turboed after all - I am considering my position as I've had another couple of near misses with the cartridge (already had to replace 2 this year) and am also getting a little weary of the crackle and pops even with well-looked after vinyl - I'll never get rid of it since it still is close to my heart but my head is telling me to put the effort into the digital side.

 

I'm with you on that one Allan - as much as I would like to add bits to my LP12, my head still tells me: NO. It spunds very good already. Perhaps an RCA - DIN interconnect.....

I'm also in a fortunate position to have a fully loaded Rega RP10. So the vinyl-beast is content. For now at least...

As a Linn KDS/3 owner I would never use the digital volume control into an analogue power amp. At low volumes it doesn't sound good. 

A better price and performance comparison would be KDS vs NDS/555PS. Then into the preamp of your choice. 

Not having power supply upgrades options is not necessarily a bad thing. I find having a lot less boxes with no worries about cable dressing a benefit too. 

Adam - stop it - I now have very worrying visions in my head, particularly as my guide dog is doing it too LOL

Graham - interesting about the low volume, I must make sure to check this out when I have a demo since when my dear wife is about we tend to listen at lower volumes.

I'm not into streaming so a straight DS rather than DSM would just be being used as a DAC and hence also why the NDS comparison was not included; I realise this is another way to go though but then you're locking into the dac that is on the NDS or KDS. I've mentioned in other threads that I consider the digital arena to still be immature and evolving hence I am minded to try and keep components as separate as possible, hence a separate DAC and why the N272 is not on my list.

The cabling thing is also only really a slight issue with me as I am not one of those that worries too much about such things having found differences to be marginal at the most - do accept however that at higher level they may contribute a bit more; having said that, it is a factor when other things are equal and I don't want to sound like I'm dismissing it totally.

I also find it interesting to note the big gap between what we might call accurate and climatic price points (sic - I'm not a Linn dyslectic) - its almost 3 times with nothing in the middle .... Naim, of course, has all its power supplies to add to fill in the gap

Allan

Allan Milne posted:

 

Higher-end:
Linn Climax DSM = £18,900.
Naim 252/Supercap/NDac/555PS = £19,240
Naim 282/XPS/NDac/555PS = £17,020

Lower end:
Linn Akurate DSM = £6,350
Naim 282/NDac = £6,855

 

Your comparisons actually missed out some fair points, and they are orange vs apple, for example the Linn's solution still need some kind of amp or active speakers, and the Naim's solution some kind of streamer.

Hi Peter,

No its not oranges and lemons; I said that streaming is not something I'm looking for - the DSM are really to be judged by me on their DAC and pre performance, the streaming being an extra wich, as I said, leads me to wonder if it compromises the other bits.

No streamer is needed for the Naim as the UnitiServe connects directly to the dac without any LAN being involved - I know some forum members have said it actually sounds better over a LAN rather than the direct connection but I've no personal evidence of this and am not going that route since, as you say, I would then need to introduce a streamer into the path.

I explicitly am looking at the DSM, not the DS so the pre is in the Linn and both Linn and Naim only need connected up to the power amp.

Allan

OK, I got you, Allan. Personally, I think putting both streamer and pre into 1 box is quite neat. Sound wise, it could be a compromise, not sure, but the Linn DSMs are the best in their class.

Hi Peter,

Yes, I agree, streamer and pre in one box is certainly neat but then its not just streamer and pre - it is streamer + DAC + pre; which might be considered even neater or even more compromised, depending on your point of view.

Personally I am one of those old goats who is set in his ways and while streaming some odd bits and bobs occasionally might be fun I'd rather listen to my albums as albums, not tracks, and knowing that I had found and selected them myself (or through the kind auspices of members of this forum. So my music is all local, not in that damn cloud (I've often wondered what will happen when it rains up there!).

I'm looking for the best DAC and pre solution at my price point and if that comes in one box or 4  then so be it.

I realise that other people, particularly the younger ones, have developed an entirely new digital culture and that the new products are particularly suited to their different modes of listening ... and good luck to them.

Allan

I think it's missing a trick if you think that those with a streamer are listening to random tracks coming from Tidal and the like. We use a 272 to stream music from a nas, and sit down to listen to whole albums just like we did with records or CDs. Using a streamer does not imply streaming from a streaming service, it's simply the way of getting the music, where the streamer pulls it from the digital storage, whereas with a UnitiServe and a Dac the Serve is pushing the music out. 

The streamers are very easy and convenient to use and the App is far better than relying on nServe. You also get a very usable interface to internet radio, with the ability to get BBC on demand at the touch or two of the app - very handy if you like the Archers. Then there is the ability to link music and radio over multi room to a mu-so elsewhere in the house.

You are clearly looking at equipment at a higher level than the 272 that I use, but don't assume that because something sounds like a theoretical compromise that it's actually that big in practice. There is lots of space in a 252 for example,which makes it entirely practical to fit a Dac and a streamer board. So what the 272 does is no different to the Linn streaming preamps such as the KDS. It seems odd to consider the Linn option but not the Naim one. 

I suggest you consider all the options, from a 272/XPS all the way up to an NDS/252, using them as streamers of locally stored material, as well as Linn equivalents and DAC sources. With the latter it has to be worth looking at the Chord options such as the Dave and Hugo TT, both of which enable you to omit the preamp if you wish. 

One point to add to this well versed summary from HH:

Both N272 and NDX have decent, optional FM/DAB modules. Note: the modules have to be factory fitted at a point of order, they cannot be retro fitted.
We use our NDX a lot for listening to a radio via a powerful roof aerial. Even if it's used with a digital out into an nDAC. Somehow NDX converts the analogue FM signal, so that it's processed by an external DAC.
The best thing about it is that a list of radio presets can contain all 'tuner' modes in one: FM/DAB/iRadio - NDX and N272 will simply switch from one to another without a user being aware of it.

Chord Hugo TT / DAVE are interesting DAC/Pre solutions that can be used with a basic streaming solution.... 

272/XPS vs Chord Dave/Microrendu ? aren't they almost a same setup/same price range ? Just connect a power map...

 Actually if you start to think of DAVE not as DAC but PRE/DAC/Headphone amp is pretty good value....

Well to be fair the Hugo, HugoTT and DAVE are all DAC/Pre/Headphone amp devices - the HugoTT and DAVE offer a remote control extra - which kind of makes the Hugo incredible value by the same standard...

Hi HH,

Wise words as always.

There are so many combinations of kit I don't think I have time left to demo them all ... and it would be a very long time before I arrived at a decision by which time there will probably be more products out there to demo too  - has the great advantage though of beinf fun and not costing me anything

The N272 hasn't come into my equation since (through ignorance, I haven't heard one) I was assuming that a 282/nDAC would be "better" - the Linn products are there because I haven't heard them and that is all they offer while Naim have so many more alternatives to try; perhaps I should hear one just to confirm.

I hear what you are saying about the streamers; my comments were in the context of the US already being in place - when it goes I will then be looking at whether I go the UnitiCore route or streamer.

I will be listening to Chord DACs in due course but only as a DAC, I have an LP12 that needs to be fed into something.

This area is all so busy that one can get overwhelmed by all the different combinations and I'm trying to keep it simple - assuming the US stays, I am looking at a DAC and pre - trouble is that it may be that the "best" performance comes from a box that does more than that like the DSM or N272.

However I think I'm right in saying that, in the Naim world, none of the streamers have a better DAC than the nDAC - am I right?

The OP was in this vein where I put together the Naim boxes I thought relevant and found that they fitted in to the Linn DSM price points - honest I didn't start with the latter and figure out what Naim boxes came to the same cost! All started when my dealer suggested the Linn DSM as something to listen to.

Thanks for the input,

Allan

Allan

Allan, I also think you might have slightly missed the point on streaming  in the typical Naim world. Streaming is like a digital transport just like CD - all that has happened is that the media has been moved from a rotating optical device to a rotating magnetic or fixed semiconductor device... other than that the media really is the same.

So consider home streaming like a CD carousel transport - remember those? - they weren't very reliable and didn't sound that good - streaming is an awful lot better... that is progress.

As far as clouds go - well that is just IT marketing venacular for network accessed remote computing services - so sure if you have the internet and a web browser or equivalent - you can play music via the web as well - and we have been able to do so on the world wide web since 1993 when web streaming technology was just coming into the world ... of tracks, albums or what have you - but streaming is certainly not  all about that

I must agree with HH since moving to an all streaming system earlier this year does not detract from listening to whole albums.

I've found that in fact I listen to albums that I haven't played for years because I can browse through my entire music collection stored on a NAS using the app.

You also have a massive variety of internet radio stations to listen t plus the ability to build up playlists if you so wish, do I miss my LP12,Ittock,Karma or CDI not at all.

Wouldn't it be interesting if a phono pre could also drive a power amp and there was a power amp that could take two switchable inputs - then we could feed the Hugo/Dace/DAC V1 and this new phono pre directly into the power amp without any other pre ... seem to remember I asked about why we have a pre in a post a few months ago

... then we could get into a great discussion about whether the built-in pre amps were better or worse than a 252 LOL

Allan

I guess - but one of the essential functions of a preamp is to match output and inout impedances together and remain consistent across different signal levels and attenuation levels . .. I guess from a non technical perspective this sounds trivial - but from a technical perspective this is far from trivial and requires careful design and consideration if the characteristics of that signal across that interface are not to be changed at different levels of attenuation (volume settings) or varying source and input impedances.

Therefore if a phono stage had an output volume control that achieved the above then indeed it would become a preamplifier - and we could then indeed compare it with a 252, 552 or 152 xs

I hear you all ... stop beating me up about streaming ... honest, I get it ... its just that ...

... honestly I don't know what it is "just that" ...

I am having a late life crisis with huge arguments between my heart, head and ears so to resolve the issue I'm trying to keep things simple and not rock my existing boxes ... otherwise I would get rid of my LP12 and my albums and my US and ... and invest in an NDS ... well that is what my head is telling me anyway but I think my heart would be very sad

Allan

Allan - just roll with it - I have a CD player and a Streamer transport - so in my heart I need the space for both - (and before you ask - its because I love the particular voicing of my CD player on certain types of music)

Allan - just let your heart decide. Music is an important part of life.
Earlier on you've asked a question: 'none of the streamers have a better DAC than the nDAC - am I right?'

There is one streamer in the NAIM stable - it's called NDS + 555PS DR.

Setting up a home streaming network is actually quite simple and you can utilise your existing UnitiServe. Since you are computer programmer, and pictures will not work, I will describe a simple set up:

1. ISP modem INTO WiFi router (or you can use ISP's WiFi module)
2. WiFi router (e.g. Apple Airport Extreme) INTO small unmanaged switch e.g. CISCO
3.  Following devices connected to CISCO: NAS, UnitiServe, NDS

If your UnitiServe has an internal drive than NAS is not even that necessary. It makes for a handy back-up though.

All of the above can reside wherever you choose to put it.

One thing you'd need to check is if your screan reader can handle the NAIM app (it's needed to control the NDS).

Adam

Simon-in-Suffolk posted:

Allan - just roll with it ......

I like that phrase very much.

Whichever medium gets you closer to the music is the right one for you, Allan. Be wary of forum evangelists. Good luck.

Chris

Christopher_M posted:

Simon-in-Suffolk posted:

Allan - just roll with it ......

I like that phrase very much.

Whichever medium gets you closer to the music is the right one for you, Allan. Be wary of forum evangelists. Good luck.

Chris

Amen to that