Flatness of NAC 202 vs NAC 282's Dynamic Spotlit Nature

Mike - are you reading this?

The 282 is a more capable preamp than the 202 with more scope for future expansion. Your experiments above nicely demonstrate how important system synergy is and whilst a component may be 'better' in isolation, it may not be the best choice in all circumstances (musical tastes, listening preferences, system balance etc...)

James

Interesting stuff and this is a clear demonstration of why demos of the entire intended system are so important, particularly amplification and speaker (and room) matching.

The particular example of the 202/282/Dali Mentor Minuets is a great example of why, as James so eloquently puts it, the 'better' amplifier is not necessarily the 'best' choice. Another example is the how opinions divide over the 282 vs 252, with some actually preferring the 282 over the 252. But I would suggest that Ryder's example is more a reflection on the speakers rather than the pre amp, and it is the speakers that are the 'limiting factor' here. It just goes to show that 'upgrading' can be a tricky business and one has to consider the impact of changing one component has on all the remaining components.

An excellent example Ryder of the care needed when attempting to 'improve' our rigs.

Very well said James, and I certainly subscribe to all notions here. The NAC 282 is a superior preamp but the NAC 202 in isolation is capable of producing a more desirable result in the context of certain systems. It is certainly more toward the speakers rather than the NAC 282, I believe. Although the NAC 282 is a higher level component, somehow the NAC 202 produces better results with the Dali Mentor Menuets, in my system, to my ears and preference.

My "reference" speakers the Harbeth SHL5 Plus will remain with the NAC 282 (the 282 is a better match to the Harbeth). The Dalis are certainly a wildcard as I did not expect the speakers to sound better with the NAC 202. Just goes on to show how important system synergy or matching is. The quality of a component is only as good as the whole assembled system.

I believe the Chord QBD76 DAC and possibly the NAP 250 DR may have played a role. The Dalis did not sound too spectacular with the NAC 202 / NAP 200 and an inferior source and DAC in the previous setup. If I can find time I will swap the NAP 250 DR out and see if the Dalis will still sound good - with the NAP 200.

Ryder - if the 282 consistently demonstrates over anything else it's exuberance so I can understand your findings.   However, -one question how extended have your listening sessions been?

Regards,

Lindsay

ryder. posted:

Currently the NAC 202 / Hicap DR / NAP 250 DR sounds good, most importantly balanced with the Dali Mentor Menuets. I will switch the NAP 250 DR out for the NAP 200 later to see how things will turn out.

By comparison, I wonder how NAC282/ HCDR/ NAP200 sounds with the Dali Mentor Menuets?

Chris

You have to consider the immovable object against the irrestistable force when evaluating the finer details of all the others and amongst each other's. You want it forward, you want it more forward..not forward enough but just so.

i like it a bit backwards.

cheers.

jug

ryder. posted:

If I can find time I will swap the NAP 250 DR out and see if the Dalis will still sound good - with the NAP 200.

From what you've already written, it sounds as if the Dalis will miss the wallop up 'em.

C.

TOBYJUG posted:

You have to consider the immovable object against the irrestistable force

Hmm that sounds familiar.....

https://youtu.be/rVOi5Hdbd7Q

I like this post, for some quite selfish reasons.  I got back into hifi around 4 years ago and have been working up through secondhand equipment to where I am now; a modest Naim based system.  Bluesound Node2 into Beresford Caiman 2 then 202/200 with added Non-naim PSU and finally NACA5 into Dynaudio Focus 160s.  Nothing awesome by most people's standards, but it seems to have a nice synergy and balance.

I think that it sounds great to my ears, but a quick trawl through the forums always adds that element of doubt.  The 202 is an example, it gets a battering from many (especially the CB fans), and it is all discussion on where to move on to.  It is rare to have somebody say that in a certain system, at a certain price point, it is going to do a great job.

I wish that I had the money to work up through the Naim range.  I don't, and hifi envy is a really awful thing to live with.  I have those nights where I am trying to find fault with every song.  Sometimes it is good for somebody to stop dissing your gear and make you realise that you have reached a level that is a bit above Amstrad (for those who remember Alan Sugar's monsters of LED flashing perfection).

NJB posted:

I think that [my system containing a 202/ 200] sounds great to my ears, but a quick trawl through the forums always adds that element of doubt.  The 202 is an example, it gets a battering from many (especially the CB fans), and it is all discussion on where to move on to.  It is rare to have somebody say that in a certain system, at a certain price point, it is going to do a great job.

Quite true but who knows how many happy NAC202 owners there are out there, who aren't forum members so, consequently, we never hear of their delight?

C.

I've never understood the antipathy towards the 202.   Sure the 282 is a game changer but at 2x the price.  The 202 makes great music.  

Regards,

Lindsay

Thanks Ryder. for your observations. I have similar observations and quite similar situation. I have recently bought Chord Hugo - NAC282 - non-Naim PSU - NAP300DR - NACA5 - JenzenATS speakers. Sound is too bright for me. With my previous speakers which I still have system is more balanced, but not satisfactory. Actually, I can easilly notice that NAP300DR makes my modest old speakers sounding good.

I should find something to improve balance of my system. I have not tried different cables yet.

NJB - The 202 is a perfectly fine pre amp and a perfect partner for the 200. I used this combo quite happily for many years.

If money is tight, resist the temptation to listen to a 282 though!

Now stop reading about the 202 and enjoy the music in the knowledge you have a very good system that is a million miles away from Mr Sugar's efforts.

The 202/200 is a £4,000 amplifier. Four thousand pounds. It's an awful lot of money, and vast numbers of people could never afford such a thing. Nobody owning such a thing should be envious of anyone else. I was talking to someone from Naim who said that a woman had bought a 7.2 system for her husband with seven Statement power amps. There are people who live in a different financial world. Anyone who owns a Naim system is very fortunate. I know this sounds trite, but being envious gnaws away and can never help. Buy what you can comfortably afford and be happy. Here endeth the lesson. 

Hungryhalibut posted:

The 202/200 is a £4,000 amplifier. Four thousand pounds. It's an awful lot of money, and vast numbers of people could never afford such a thing. Nobody owning such a thing should be envious of anyone else. I was talking to someone from Naim who said that a woman had bought a 7.2 system for her husband with seven Statement power amps. There are people who live in a different financial world. Anyone who owns a Naim system is very fortunate. I know this sounds trite, but being envious gnaws away and can never help. Buy what you can comfortably afford and be happy. Here endeth the lesson. 

Permission to print that off, frame it and stick it on the wall above my 6 level fraim?

Feel free to stick whatever you like wherever you like. 

Thanks. 

The Strat (Fender) posted:

I've never understood the antipathy towards the 202.   Sure the 282 is a game changer but at 2x the price.  The 202 makes great music.  

Regards,

Lindsay

I agree, but to be honest I found the 202 needed DR powersupplies to make it come alive... and of course they have been around for a few years.

Simon

NJB posted:

I like this post, for some quite selfish reasons.  I got back into hifi around 4 years ago and have been working up through secondhand equipment to where I am now; a modest Naim based system.  Bluesound Node2 into Beresford Caiman 2 then 202/200 with added Non-naim PSU and finally NACA5 into Dynaudio Focus 160s.  Nothing awesome by most people's standards, but it seems to have a nice synergy and balance.

 I think that it sounds great to my ears, but a quick trawl through the forums always adds that element of doubt.  The 202 is an example, it gets a battering from many (especially the CB fans), and it is all discussion on where to move on to.  It is rare to have somebody say that in a certain system, at a certain price point, it is going to do a great job.

 I wish that I had the money to work up through the Naim range.  I don't, and hifi envy is a really awful thing to live with.  I have those nights where I am trying to find fault with every song.  Sometimes it is good for somebody to stop dissing your gear and make you realise that you have reached a level that is a bit above Amstrad (for those who remember Alan Sugar's monsters of LED flashing perfection).

Sorry if I have to say this as it might offend some. Sometimes it might be useful to stay away from the forums, or perhaps refrain from taking some of the suggestions or comments too seriously or one might end up chasing rainbows. The well-heeled will not have any problems upgrading through the ranks but those who struggle to put food on the table might end up chasing rainbows rather than putting the money to better use elsewhere.

From my limited experience and few others, my surmise is that out of 100 systems, the NAC 202 might be capable of sounding better (than the NAC 282) in one single system. I believe it might be good to appreciate what you have achieved in your system rather than thinking that something in your system is broken or needs overhauling after reading some of the comments here, particularly the criticism of the NAC 202 / NAP 200. There are some who thought the NAC 202 / NAP 200 are the worst sounding amps from Naim. Just leave these comments to themselves and don't let these remarks sway you to the other camp. It's their opinion in the context of their systems and ears that will not apply to everyone. You would never know - you might end up with something else that sounds inferior.

The Strat (Fender) posted:

I've never understood the antipathy towards the 202.   Sure the 282 is a game changer but at 2x the price.  The 202 makes great music.  

Regards,

Lindsay

Yes, I agree.

An update.

I have gone from the NAC 282 to the NAC 202 and have lived with the system for about a week now. Both these preamps are connected to the Hicap DR and NAP 250 DR.

After a week with the NAC 202 / Hicap DR / NAP 250 DR, I have replaced the NAP 250 DR with the NAP 200 yesterday. The rest of the system :-

Laptop playing FLAC ==> Chord QBD76 via USB ==> NAC 202 / Hicap DR / NAP 200 ==> Dali Mentor Menuet

My impressions as follows:-

NAC 282 / Hicap DR / NAP 250 DR : The worst sounding out of the lot (with the Dalis) to my ears, in the context of my system. The sound is spotlit which made music sounds unnatural. The most dynamic sounding amps but a bit too much.

NAC 202 / Hicap DR / NAP 250 DR : The best sounding combination to my ears, in the context of my system. The most balanced sound.

NAC 202 / Hicap DR / NAP 200 : Lost the depth and holographic qualities of the 202/HCDR/250DR.

In summary.

The NAC 202 / Hicap DR / NAP 250 DR combination is not a weird or unbalanced one although the NAC 282 is the natural partner to the NAP 250 DR. In the context of my system and listening preference, the NAC 202 / Hicap DR / NAP 250 DR sounds the best. Switching from the NAP 250 DR to the NAP 200, music lost a bit of sparkle and sounded 2-dimensional. There is a feeling of 3-dimensional space and depth with the NAP 250 DR and instruments particularly piano sound more real. The tone of the piano sounds slightly duller on the NAP 200 than on the NAP 250 DR.

If one does not compare the amps, the NAC 202 / Hicap DR / NAP 200 still sounds good - perfectly fine. If one is looking for an upgrade or change, the NAP 250 DR is a worthy consideration even though the NAC 202 / NAP 250 DR is not an "endorsed" combination within the Naim community. The NAP 250 DR surely adds more depth and sophistication to the sound when compared to the NAP 200. The NAC 282 is also a good option but there are chances that the NAC 202 may sound better in few isolated systems.

As usual, try before you buy, if you can.

A disclaimer is the NAP 200 may be more than 10 years old and is overdue for a service. Nevertheless, judging from another member's experience with the NAP 200 and NAP 250 DR, I believe the the strengths of the latter are real and tangible. However, the NAC 202 / NAP 200 is still a very nice system in its own right.

I have added a "Like" to Hungryhalibut's comment above which now has 8 Likes. For those who are happy with your NAC 202 / NAP 200, be grateful with what you have achieved with your system. They are good amps.

Interesting observations Ryder. As the 250 is a DR model then it adds a complication, in my eyes, when considering whether a move from a 200 to a 250 is justified. Having said that, I recall comments that the DR changes are most noticeable when using a NAP to power a NAC. I have considered a 250 as my next upgrade but will go secondhand and DR might be outside my price range. The problem with secondhand is that auditions are tricky to arrange and comparisons are sometimes just too impractical. Would anyone like to hazard a guess on whether a non DR 250 would add a lot over a non DR 200?