Are My Speakers Too Far Apart (and if so, why do they sound so good) ?

Very interesting results! My speakers are nowhere near as far apart as yours, but I sit at a greater distance from my speakers than they are from each other. So I don't have an equilateral triangle setup. In my office I'll be at the other extreme, the speakers will be 2m apart and I'll only be 2m from them, a bit close, but it's all I've got. On the plus side I will have a decent triangle which I've always found sounds great to me. 

I like that coffee table [@mention:50000042259284686]! 

What I at least as interesting is with those sofas located where they are that it isn't raising havoc with your listening.

This is an important topic that others might want to comment on or learn from so it might be worth moving this thread from Music Room to Hi Fi Corner.

Mine are far away from each other almost 4 meters, however directly focused at my listening position. However quite a distance, and I have the feeling the position is not that bad.

I think this pic shows that the upper 3 drive units have a pretty clear direct route to the listening position whereas the bass driver is blocked by the sofas, but I guess the bass isn't as directional so it's not so critical.  Reflections off the coffee table in the previous cross-room configuration have been commented on by HH previously; in this setup it's a long way from the speakers so perhaps that's helping.

Perhaps the moderator can move the thread over to the Hi Fi Corner ? (where I had intended to post it originally doh..) 

As long as it sounds good, nothing else matters

The early reflection points of the speakers have been altered both by moving the speakers farther apart and now sitting farther from them. Maybe those reflection points are now in front of your listening position whereas previously they arrived more directly at your listening position. If that's the case you may be hearing greater coherence. As you say the bass directionality is not important and you might be getting some low frequency absorption by the couch in front. Better coherence in that regard as well. Whatever the case, I'd simply enjoy the serendipity of your new position!

it's an interesting result that shows the merits of playing around with speaker placement, if you can. the setup you have now is unorthodox, but if it sounds better, it is better.

great thread, by the way. 

Peter from Cymbiosis came 'round on his latest trip to the USA to install a Radikal for me -- and his first comment regarding my setup was "your speakers are too far apart".

what's more, my Devore Fidelity Gibbon 8 speakers have mirror-imaged tweeters -- that is, they're located to the left/right of the woofer, rather than directly in line with it. (see photo.) Devore insists that the tweeter should be on the "outer" edge of the speaker, rather than the "inner" edge -- to the point that they label the speakers as "left" and "right".

Peter's take is that mirror-imaged tweeters always sound better when on the "inner" edge of the baffle, so we swapped the speakers.

instant improvement! no doubt about it. a much more solid central image and it sounded more dynamic.

i'd highly recommend that others give this a try.

(previous position shown below. now, the cat has been removed, and the tweeter is to the "left" of the woofer.)

My old Rega Ela's tweeters were like that....always made a difference when you swapped from out to in....'in' always sounded better to me

I appreciate this thread. Yet another example of how important the setup is to be able to change the whole presentation of the system. The "upgrade" with setup and speaker placement which is room-related can be more significant than any component upgrade as they will make or break the system.

I recently moved the speakers as there were complaints on how they were making the living space look messy and untidy. As the speakers are in the living room, they need to blend in to the decor and other furniture in the house. From 2.3 apart to about 1.6m apart at a new location. After getting some inspiration from this thread, I have moved the rack and rearranged the speakers to 3.7m apart. I have not envisaged the speakers to be this far apart but it's the best sound I am getting so far with this configuration. A full and enveloping sound, and the bass and detail just sound right.

My speakers are also behind the sofa, but I have arranged them in such a way that the sofa is in between the speakers. The arrangement is a compromise. Nevertheless, in no way the sofa is blocking the direct path or view of the speakers from the listening chair, and this is quite an important criterion to me. Sometimes we have to make do with the limitations that we have and endeavor to achieve the best possible results in the given circumstances.

[@mention:1566878604025788] How far away do you sit from your speakers? 

Finkfan, about 4.2m from speakers.

It looks like in the new location the speakers rears are further away from the wall, wheraas the original location had them nearly against it.  They maybe have more space to 'breathe'.  Plus the speaker on the right is closer to the side wall, without a sofa in front and might be using that too.  

But as others have said, if it sounds better it was a good move.

I just wonder as well if it's the fact that we're getting closer to the equilateral triangle between speakers and listener? I know there's a compromise for most of us. My speakers are currently 1.8m apart and I sit about 3m from them, but if I move forward a metre there is definitely a more enveloping sound. 

Wherever your speakers sound best, within the limitations of what is physically/logistically possible is the correct position and distance apart. Makes no difference what other people say, do or think. If it's correct for you then it's correct.

My speakers are 4 meters apart firing into an 8.x meter long room - the living room. There is no stereo gap, but stereo imaging works only well on Jazz music.

I prefer listening in my living room over other rooms in my house since the space gives something extra. I could turn up the volume and dynamics roll nicely through the room.

No and then I place my stuff in the tv-room behind the french doors and watch or listen some concerts e.g. using digital concert hall. Since this room is an all-curtain room, reflections are close to zero and it is really nice now and then to listen in an analytical way. All details are revealed there. Moving 10 centimetres forward means a difference in sound reception.

Complete different experience, but the characteristics of the CM1 speakers are unchanged. Still same colour and dynamics. Nice.

When time is there, I'll post some photo's but it implies for me cleaning up an enormous amount of Duplo, towers made of wooden bricks, paintings, homework, chocolate bars, beer bottles, baby chairs, newspapers (they still exist), magazines, computers, tablets

It all depends on the speakers, the room, and any limitations on listening position.

in my present room, some 7.5m nearly square but with two corners cut off and protruding stub walls, and a sofa across the middle for other reasons, I struggled to find an acceptable sound, seemingly dogged by significant peaks or troughs almost everywhere, eventually finding somewhere that works: speakers about 9ft apart and 9 ft axially to listening position, which is an easy chair I move to just in front of the sofa. That is the 'serious' listening position, but at other times the chair moves away and the speakers move to about 14ft apart, either side of the large window and its equally large movie screen blind, producing a still great if not even sound, quite suited to casual listening. 

Someone I know had placement problems in an L-shaped lounge, and ended up with one speaker on the left wall relative to the listening position, about a third of the way forward of the wall behind the sofa, and the other straight ahead of the listening position close to and near the centre of the wall opposite the sofa. The speakers were my old IMF TLS50s - and contrary  to all expectations they sounded superb! 

Measuring of room with software like REW can assist in finding placement options, especially if the desire is for an even response across the soectrum, however, as already mentioned, anything is right if it sounds right!

In the older photo your SU is rather close to one of the speakers (which is also very close to the wall from what I can see.) Given that the SU isn't on a dedicated support with isolation, maybe it wasn't performing at its best. In the newer photo, it's a little bit further from the speaker, and on a different support, and with different cable routing, so maybe it's happier there?

I'm not in any way dismissing the idea of room layout discussed above, but to some extent we're all just speculating, so here's another factor to throw into the mix.

Add my voice to the chorus that says the proof is in the listening.  Perhaps you have found speaker locations which "play the room."  In the various setups I have tried over the years, I have usually preferred speakers aimed down the length of a room, and separation from listener which is at or a bit closer than equilateral triangle, and listening position at least somewhat away from rear wall.  

Good work!

Charlie

whatever works for you..

if it lasts..its good else ... honeymoon over 

Finkfan posted:

I just wonder as well if it's the fact that we're getting closer to the equilateral triangle between speakers and listener? I know there's a compromise for most of us. My speakers are currently 1.8m apart and I sit about 3m from them, but if I move forward a metre there is definitely a more enveloping sound. 

IME, the equilateral triangle is a good starting point but not an absolute. Room modes and reflection points can vary dramatically within a meter change of listening positions. Especially in a smallish room you could move from a bass dropout locale to one of bass emphasis/balance within a meter's difference. The latter perhaps providing a more enveloping sound.

Another interesting factor to me is the degree of toe-in. Borders Nick mentions his speakers are toed in, yet I well see the interior side of the speakers, more so on the left. I've recently moved my speakers farther apart and found that best results came from a toe in where I can barely see the interior side of my speakers, presumably projecting the focal point of the speakers just behind my head. Experimenting with speaker toe in is a great way to alter the high frequency reflection points of the speakers within the room while having essentially no effect on low frequency response.

With my speakers, they are aimed at a point a few feet behind the listener.  There is a very 3 dimensional image behind and between the speakers from a fairly wide range of listening positions.  With less toe in, this image collapses more quickly when moving away from the centerline.

Charlie

CharlieP posted:

Perhaps you have found speaker locations which "play the room." 

This is the crux of it. We don't listen to the speakers so much as the room and making it work in our favour can be tricky. Whatever works.

I have played around with speaker positions for years and nothing surprises me anymore. A friend has his speakers in an L shaped room with one pointing at the listening position but the other actually faces the other speaker but a central image is what he has and like (ish) Rimmer said to Lister in Red Dwarf it shouldn't work but it does! Well what I mean is if it does for you then great but it I wonder if you are really enjoying the massive stature of the soundstage. Be that as it may enjoy the music that is what has the most importance. 

Thanks for all your responses.  Interesting to hear the various set-ups.

It's  still sounding pretty damn good  , so I'll continue enjoying the honeymoon period for now and perhaps play with the degree of toe-in as suggested.  Speakers are further from the back wall than the previous set up, but I had played around with them in the previous set up and not really heard any significant that gains by moving further out.  I guess the set up is somehow "just making the room work".  Cheers N.