Ok so I tried a 252 and I'm not sure what to make of it.

MDS posted:

Maybe the 252's presentation doesn't work for you, Drewy. It didn't for me and I tried it twice at home, each time for a couple of weeks.  I found my 282 (with SC) less refined and detailed but just so much more exciting.  I ran my 282 with SCDR and 300DR for a while and found it an excellent combination. Perhaps you should try a 282 in your system to see if its presentation pushes you buttons. Some don't like it but you won't know until you try.

I agree the step to a 552 is steep, and is a big step up in performance from 282/252. I took that step but remain a big fan of the 282.

Mike 

I agree with pretty  much everything Mike says. I was happy with the 282/S.Cap./250 before moving on.

Do you prefer your current set up to the 252. 

Are all the cables dressed correctly. Haven't read all the replies, so sorry if there's duplication in my response.

Ravenswood10 posted:

Perhaps it's my taste in music but I've always been happy with my 252/Supercap DR. I progressed from a 202 and 282 and for me the 252 was a real improvement. It's all down to the sum of the parts at the end of the day and in my system it clearly works. Recently the addition of a SL loom made the biggest single difference even with my Ovator 600s - Marmite effects cancelled out perhaps?!

One can over-analyse such things

Yes you are probably right. 

Ive now got Roger Waters' The Wall album on. I had it on last night through the 252 and it did sound amazing. Now my wife has just commented it sounds like cotton wool and she's never usually bothered. 

I'm wondering if my initial thoughts on the 252 stems from when I first plugged it in and turned it on from cold. Maybe it took a week to gradually improve so I didn't notice how much better it was than my existing system. Mr dealer did ask me what I thought after plugging the SU back in but of course I had to say I'd not tried it at that point. 

Im off to London for new year tomorrow so I will have a good think about where I'm going to go from here and if I'm prepared to dare try a 552.

Are we suggesting that the 252 is in some way more temperamental than either the 282 or 552?

Drewy, you are close to or at the position when the law of diminishing returns really has relevance.

SuperUniti to 252 and thence 552 is, in reality, not worth the outlay from a bang per buck perspective.

When I got a s/h SuperUniti I put it in my main system to check it was working okay, so it replaced a 552/300 and there was no red faced embarrassment -  something sounding broken moment. The SuperUniti is damn fine, the 552/330 is better but not £25K better.

I love my Naim system, but it's overpriced of that I'm sure, the doubling in price of each pre simply does not equate to anything like a doubling in sound quality, it's in the 10-25% arena if we are all honest.

What am I saying, perhaps you're expecting too much, the leaps you imagine from reading this forum, IMHO simply don't exist.

SJB

sheffieldgraham posted:

MDS posted:

Maybe the 252's presentation doesn't work for you, Drewy. It didn't for me and I tried it twice at home, each time for a couple of weeks.  I found my 282 (with SC) less refined and detailed but just so much more exciting.  I ran my 282 with SCDR and 300DR for a while and found it an excellent combination. Perhaps you should try a 282 in your system to see if its presentation pushes you buttons. Some don't like it but you won't know until you try.

I agree the step to a 552 is steep, and is a big step up in performance from 282/252. I took that step but remain a big fan of the 282.

Mike 

I agree with pretty  much everything Mike says. I was happy with the 282/S.Cap./250 before moving on.

Do you prefer your current set up to the 252. 

Are all the cables dressed correctly. Haven't read all the replies, so sorry if there's duplication in my response.

Hi Graham. 

Yes the cables are/were I believe dressed correctly or as best as I can get them (it's awkward isn't it).

as you will see in my last reply I certainly don't prefer my current set up. That would be nuts.

i think the main thing it it didn't sound too fantastic when I first powered it up and it slowly improved to achieve its best, slower than I ever thought it would and it might not be a very well run in example (I'll ask my dealer about this when I next speak to him). I think you get more of an impact going back to your old set up than you do trying out the new.

I'd agree with Sloop John B. The gains moving up the chain are there for sure but whether they are worth the extra outlay only you can decide.

Almost any Naim system is better (and much more expensive) than most men in the street would own.

Find the best combination of components your budget can run to, switch it on, run it in and sit back and enjoy the music.

This place can be incredibly detrimental to your bank balance if you're not careful !

The Strat (Fender) posted:

Are we suggesting that the 252 is in some way more temperamental than either the 282 or 552?

I wouldn't be in a position to comment on the others but I think I've found out that the 252 at least needs a lot of warming up and settling down to sound it's best. 

SJB, there is a lot of truth in what you say. I once had a CDS3, 552 and 300 and while it was better than the much simpler and cheaper 272/250 I have now, it wasn't that much better. Interestingly, the speakers were/are the same in both setups. It's quite nice to have owned the expensive stuff and to realise that it's not necessary in order to enjoy your music. A well sorted more modest system with good stands, mains and wires can sound much better than an expensive setup slung together. It's also worth noting that a used 552 can be had for less than the cost of a new 252/SC. 

Drew  I agree with your last sentence. Sounds like the 252 needs time to settle in. Don't audition the 552 unless your happy to go there. It has the powers of temptation.

Sloop John B posted:

Drewy, you are close to or at the position when the law of diminishing returns really has relevance.

SuperUniti to 252 and thence 552 is, in reality, not worth the outlay from a bang per buck perspective.

When I got a s/h SuperUniti I put it in my main system to check it was working okay, so it replaced a 552/300 and there was no red faced embarrassment -  something sounding broken moment. The SuperUniti is damn fine, the 552/330 is better but not £25K better.

I love my Naim system, but it's overpriced of that I'm sure, the doubling in price of each pre simply does not equate to anything like a doubling in sound quality, it's in the 10-25% arena if we are all honest.

What am I saying, perhaps you're expecting too much, the leaps you imagine from reading this forum, IMHO simply don't exist.

 

SJB

 

IanG posted:

I'd agree with Sloop John B. The gains moving up the chain are there for sure but whether they are worth the extra outlay only you can decide.

Almost any Naim system is better (and much more expensive) than most men in the street would own.

Find the best combination of components your budget can run to, switch it on, run it in and sit back and enjoy the music.

This place can be incredibly detrimental to your bank balance if you're not careful !

I totally agree with both of you but the biggest waste of money is buying something you later wish you hadn't. It's then that you lose money and the very reason I started by putting a 300 on my SU followed by the NDS. The only thing I'm having to sell on at a loss is the SU and as I got that ex demo for £2600 I've not done too bad there. 

Ive got friends buying expensive Porsches and Audi's they can't really afford and losing more than 20k on those in no time while sat in traffic so that's my justification. I nearly convince myself Naim stuff is cheap until I look and what's inside it.

Drewy,

Several 252 owners here have provided excellent advice on set up to get the best out of a 252.

Several years ago, I too was looking to buy a 252/Supercap. After auditioning 3 separate examples in dealer demos, I couldn't settle with it. After trying a 282/Supercap, I ended up with the 52 that I enjoy to this day.  There are many, many threads about 252 vs 282, as their character is so different.  

If you able to, try to listen to a 52 in your system. On the other hand, I have found the 552 to be head and shoulders above any of these 3 pre-amps, so long as you can afford one.

Hope this helps, FT

Drewy : "I nearly convince myself Naim stuff is cheap until I look and what's inside it."

Do you mean cheap financially or cheap in the looks department? 

While things do improve and settle down, it should be possible to tell the difference straight away. It took literally ten seconds to hear how much of a world away the 552 is to the 252. If after a few days you are not entirely convinced it's unlikely you ever will be. It's easier to believe that something is better just because everyone tells you it is. I'm increasingly  convinced that upgrading without going anywhere near the Forum, and making your own uninfluenced decisions, is the best way to get the right decision. Those who love the 252 tell you it's the best, those who think the 282 is better tell you that there is no point getting the the 252, and then there are those who love the 552 saying that you should go for it whether you can afford it or not. I've owned two 252s and didn't really like it either time. The 552 is wonderful, but it costs TWENTY THOUSAND POUNDS! Is it worth it? Will it make your life that much better? Does this make sense? Probably not. 

sheffieldgraham posted:

Drewy : "I nearly convince myself Naim stuff is cheap until I look and what's inside it."

Do you mean cheap financially or cheap in the looks department? 

 

Financially. I think 

i think I'm losing the plot here. All I need now is Wenger's input

NDS/555PS/252/300 + speakers and cables and rack is a 40-50K system and wonderful. To me it's worth every penny I've spent assembling it. 552 was too big a step but maybe one day...

If that's your dream system and you can afford it go for it, I'm sure you won't regret it. Naim is very good at causing you to itch, the forum perpetuates that. Unless you reach the dizzy heights of the Statement there IS always something better than you've currently got.

No one is saying don't go for that system but take your time to audition the different combinations to find what you like best. You might even be pleasantly surprised and spend less than you intended.

Hungryhalibut posted:

While things do improve and settle down, it should be possible to tell the difference straight away. It took literally ten seconds to hear how much of a world away the 552 is to the 252. If after a few days you are not entirely convinced it's unlikely you ever will be. It's easier to believe that something is better just because everyone tells you it is. I'm increasingly  convinced that upgrading without going anywhere near the Forum, and making your own uninfluenced decisions, is the best way to get the right decision. Those who love the 252 tell you it's the best, those who think the 282 is better tell you that there is no point getting the the 252, and then there are those who love the 552 saying that you should go for it whether you can afford it or not. I've owned two 252s and didn't really like it either time. The 552 is wonderful, but it costs TWENTY THOUSAND POUNDS! Is it worth it? Will it make your life that much better? Does this make sense? Probably not. 

The problem I had with the 252 is I plugged it in and literally ten seconds later I said to myself "is that it?" It really was nothing special and that thought kind of stuck with me as it slowly warmed up and improved over the week. Obviously I was aware it improved but until I put the old system back together today and tried it out tonight I didn't realise the improvement it made. Even my 300dr sounds pretty good from cold.   

Im not saying I will go 552 as even though I can afford it I don't really "want" to give Naim that much for a preamp. I just need to decide if the 252's neutralness is something I will love and adore enough to never want to sell. If that's not the case then I will happily try the 552 and if that's the way it has to be then so be it. 

You never know I might try a 552 and decide I don't want it (would be a world first I know).

As an off topic comment I came off my bike on ice this morning. Hip's up like a balloon and I have a 5" circle of nice wet road rash. Luckily nothing's broken but it's stiffening up nicely. I don't think I hit my head......

IanG posted:

NDS/555PS/252/300 + speakers and cables and rack is a 40-50K system and wonderful. To me it's worth every penny I've spent assembling it. 552 was too big a step but maybe one day...

If that's your dream system and you can afford it go for it, I'm sure you won't regret it. Naim is very good at causing you to itch, the forum perpetuates that. Unless you reach the dizzy heights of the Statement there IS always something better than you've currently got.

No one is saying don't go for that system but take your time to audition the different combinations to find what you like best. You might even be pleasantly surprised and spend less than you intended.

Thanks Ian 

Drewy, sorry to hear you hurt yourself.  Maybe time to sit back and enjoy some of your favorite music - and a favorite beverage.

Charlie

It seems the 'diminishing returns' are being discussed again. Some are trying to persuade Drewy that a 552 would not be worth the expense. But everybody know that in the Naim hierarchy each step onward costs about twice as much as the preceding one: it is no great news. And we all know that what you get is not proportionally equal to what you spent, also because quantifications of sound quality are, sincerely, impossible, useless and absurd. One hears a 552, decides if he likes it, chooses to buy it or not. It's his own money and decision.

The 252 is also under the microscope; I've read a lot of critics about it, it's not an assertive preamp I admit; but I have a 282 with a SC, and to my ears the 252 is a little mannered but much more musical. It's probably self delusion, but each time I have carefully heard an 'upper' piece of equipment by Naim, the 'lower' one on the Upgrade Path has started to sound less satisfying.

I have also owned a SuperUniti, and sold it scarcely a week later. It's the single, only piece of Naim gear I really regret having bought. That is pipe and slippers to my ears, not a 252. But I suppose it's just opinions.

Drewy posted:

The Strat (Fender) posted:

Are we suggesting that the 252 is in some way more temperamental than either the 282 or 552?

I wouldn't be in a position to comment on the others but I think I've found out that the 252 at least needs a lot of warming up and settling down to sound it's best. 

Oh no doubt they all take time to warm up and run in but some of the discussion seemed to be suggesting that the 252 was particularly suspectible to setting up.  In any event it sounds like you are getting the opportunity to get familiar with its sound signature. I predict you'll stick with it

a couple things: the contention that Drewy's loaner 252 will only give its best when placed on two £4000 stacks of Fraim, as opposed to one, is... possibly true, but definitely why normal people don't understand us HiFi nuts. Shirley, Drewy can get the cut of the 252's jib on merely one lump of Fraim?

also, try a 282! you got nothing to lose. have your dealer pop over while the road rash heals. (sorry about that.)

Drewy posted:

Is this preamp the weak link in the Naim line up?

 

To my ears it's the best VFM pre in the Naim line up. A beauty. But if a 552 is in the offing,, proceed directly to your magical end point. Even if it means waiting a bit longer. They are in different universes, as should be expected for the price difference. I love the 152 for it's Joie de vivre. I think the 202 and 282 can both be bettered for less if you are not a Naim junkie with a really bad habit. The 252, to my ears gets the music back on track but it will not sound as impressive and bombastic as a 282, particularly with a 250, because it is too good at sounding natural and unforced.

Insert subjectivity disclaimer here.

'I have also owned a SuperUniti, and sold it scarcely a week later. It's the single, only piece of Naim gear I really regret having bought. "

Ahem...DVD5?

Drewy posted:

I installed it myself. I did have a play around with it on the single Fraim stack. Power supplies were lowest, from the bottom 300ps, Supercap and then 555ps. The others were in the same order as their power supplies above. As I said I did play around with things to make sure it was good as it could be and there was a nice improvement particularly in the bass resulting in the soundstage opening up but it just didn't do enough for me. 

Maybe im expecting too much and only by trying other preamps will I really be able to put in into perspective.

 Much had been said here. It may be a case of setup, or it may not be the case. However, I do echo the sentiments of those who brought up the case of point of diminishing returns. Sometimes the differences between components can be quite marginal and are not as significant as some might have portrayed them to be. I own the NAC 202 and NAC 282 and have frequently compared them time to time in the main system. No doubt there are differences and I don't disagree that the NAC 282 is the game changer. Nevertheless, in reality the differences are not really day and night. At this level it's the small differences that count, subtle differences that make all the (big) difference. This may partly explain your wife's experience when she commented on the next day that the Superuniti sounded like cotton wool when it was back in place, replacing the NAC 252. The quality of a particular gear may only be appreciated once it is gone.

Sloop John B made a good point on the comparison between the Superuniti and NAC 552 / NAP 300.

You may want to try the NAC 282. Who knows you might find it to be a better proposition than the NAC 252. And the good thing is it's cheaper.

The Strat (Fender) posted:

Are we suggesting that the 252 is in some way more temperamental than either the 282 or 552?

I found the my 252 more finicky to setup than my 282 so as to sound its best... more sensitive to support, SuperCapDR, warm up  and cable dressing, no doubt because of the extended performance envelope over the 282. Those with 552s that I know and have spoken to say their NACs take a little effort to sound optimal too... in fact it's probably fair to say I have heard more what I would call 'off' sounding 552 setups (erring on being overly bright and analytical) than what I would call optimised (balanced and flowing with natural detail)... and so I suspect the 552 is as temperamental if not more so than the 252 to setup so as to sound optimal....