Serious case of upgraditis, what to do

In my view, the NDX/282 would be significantly better than the 272, which can only compete if you add an XPS to it. However, you will need to budget for a Hicap to power the 282 if you want to run a 300. You could consider 282/200DR or 282/Hicap/250 unless you have particularly demanding speakers.

If you want to continue to run your Hugo, remember that you cannot run it between the streamer and preamp section of the 272 - you need the NDX/282 for that.

Tom hi,

In my opinion the NDX/282  improves upon the 272 by some margin in respect, soundstage, bass depth and definition, treble and generally has you more involved with the music.  But a general point both the NDX and 272 need a XPS to be at their best. 

Regards,

Lindsay

If you decide to use 272 with your NAP300, I think you will also need to get an XPS for it at some stage. So that's 4 boxes.

With NDX /282 you will also need an XPS for your NDX and you must have at least a HiCap to power the pre-amp.

So sound quality is one, but box count can also be a factor to consider.

If you get the 300 then there's also the temptation to have the DR upgrade, at yet further cost. Might a 250DR be a viable option. 

Well, up to this point the 300 is the only fixed item (ordered & paid for).

The idea indeed is to apply the DR in a few years time.  Also, I have 5 layers of fraim at the moment. Don't care that much about moving the mini / hugo on the floor as with the NaitXS I could not determine a loss in sound quality. I also have a CD5XS and flatcap that the misses loves.

[@mention:36201736949470193], the 282 is included with the napsc. Why would I need a hicap?

[@mention:1566878604010590], another box (xps) is not an issue given a bit of time. But currently out of scope

[@mention:44366773372132405], box count is certainly something to keep in mind

I'm also thinking of only buying the 282 and keeping the hugo+mini instead of buying the NDX. I would be keeping the mini anyways as its just too comfortable at the moment serving as a multipurpose hub. Downside is the MediaCenter app that I still don't like (1yrs+ use). 

The naps only powers the digital circuitry of the 282 so you will still need the hicap to power the preamp 

Tom, the NAPSC only powers the peripheral circuits of the 282, in order to isolate them from the sensitive audio signal. So the main audio circuits require a separate power supply. This can be done in two different ways, either from a separate power supply from such as a Hicap, or from some Naim power amps such as the 200, but NOT the 250 or 300. 

I would suggest that you put off purchasing any components until you have decided on a complete system that works for you. The 300 is a fantastic amp, but you need a complete system that works as a whole, and buying individual components without a plan can be a very expensive mistake. 

In considering a used NDX be aware that older units are not Tidal enabled without a refurb.  I don't know if this is a concern for you but since subscribing to the service about half my listening is via Tidal and I wouldn't want to be without it.  Also be advised that some 282 owners don't feel the unit reaches its full potential without a 2nd Hicap, or even a Supercap, powering it.  There are various threads here discussing this.

Tom-in-Amsterdam posted:

I'm also thinking of only buying the 282 and keeping the hugo+mini instead of buying the NDX. I would be keeping the mini anyways as its just too comfortable at the moment serving as a multipurpose hub. Downside is the MediaCenter app that I still don't like (1yrs+ use). 

 

 

I think that's what I would do, at least at first. Or even audition a 282 vs your Hugo direct into the 300. Some prefer it that way, certainly with the Hugo's big brother, the TT. 

You've already made peace with buying a 282 if  it's better, so nothing to lose by doing the experiment.

282 works fine with one hicap dr

I would keep the Hugo and mini and buy the 282

given budget and the other parameters mentioned, i agree that Mac Mini -> Hugo -> 282 -> Hicap DR -> 300 is the way to go. should be quite a lively system!

Tom, since you don't like your streaming app, i also recommend you take advantage of the free 60-day trial that Roon offers. it's a much better app for accessing your music -- and Tidal and Internet radio integrate seamlessly, in addition to any music files you may have. 

I'm not clear as to what the 'mini' is: if it is a Mac Mini, then I suggest changing the player software to Audirvana, which when fully optimised including using a dedicated usb bus output ( bypassing the MM's internal soundcard), it achieves sound quality among the best. But Hugo doesn't have RF isolation on its usb input, and an electrical connection from any computer will suffer in sound quality ss a result, so an isolator is needed in between: I used a Gustard U12 isolator/converter to very good effect, though there are other options, which have been discussed in some threads over the past year or two.

Quite a few people have upgraded from plain NDX by adding the Hugo to replace the internal DAC, so changing to NDx may be a retrograde step (subject to hearing for yourself), or if just substituting the renderer section for what you use now I think Audirvana must be woth serious consideration, even if your mini is not a MM, and you have to buy that, too. However, if doing that it might be worth checking out the UNiti Core, which can do the same job and feed a DAC direct, except that as yet there is no categoric indication of how good Core is in that function. Other alternatives include Melco: and all these obviate the need to stream files across a network, with all the potential problems that can cause, given the many pleas for help on here.

of course, you could consider upgrading Hugo to HugoTT, and if you don't have any analogue sources you can even feed the TT direct into the 300 and save on a power amp (actually you can with Hugo, too, but no remote control). There are some recent reports of various people's experiences doing just that.

I am using 272/300 and happy with it, the value is there vs 282 setup.

If you go for 282/NDX eventually you will want to add xps and a hicap with 272 it will be just an xps,also with the cabling there will be an additional interconnect

So upgrade route is also way better value

Do they sound very different, not to my ears,not for the difference in the price and box count

272 is the best value item in naim price list in my opinion

Emre posted:

I am using 272/300 and happy with it, the value is there vs 282 setup.

If you go for 282/NDX eventually you will want to add xps and a hicap with 272 it will be just an xps,also with the cabling there will be an additional interconnect

So upgrade route is also way better value

Do they sound very different, not to my ears,not for the difference in the price and box count

272 is the best value item in naim price list in my opinion

If you talk in terms of VFM, then nothing in this hobby of ours presents VFM much beyond an iPod. If we always go for the best "deal" in terms of cost:sound quality ratio then most of us are not going to end up with a system that truly satisfies at the end of the day.

This is just my perspective of course. I firmly beleive that it should be approached as "What is the best sounding solution I can get for $X?" as opposed to "What is the best VFM solution up to the cost of $X?"

In my view the NDX +282 is the better option...

I would also add that if you have or ever intend to have a a vinyl source 282 is better.

Tallan posted:

In considering a used NDX be aware that older units are not Tidal enabled without a refurb.  I don't know if this is a concern for you but since subscribing to the service about half my listening is via Tidal and I wouldn't want to be without it.  Also be advised that some 282 owners don't feel the unit reaches its full potential without a 2nd Hicap, or even a Supercap, powering it.  There are various threads here discussing this.

Can you elaborate, I have a very early NDX and it plays Tidal fine with no refurbishment necessary. Very early on many of the Naim streamer products had a free dealer upgrade, about a 30 minute task,   swapping the little streamer PCB out so as to play above 96/24 and have larger playlist buffers, is this what you are referring to? In which case you just need to check your early streaming product can play 192/24.

Regarding the 282, there are others including me that say the 282 reaches its full potential with HCapDR and the SuperCapDR actually detracts... I did not use my SuperCapDR on my 282 because of this, but instead preferred to use my HiCapDR.

Simon

282 with 300 require at least a flatcap or hicap along a napsc

272 is selfpowered

feeling_zen posted:

Emre posted:

I am using 272/300 and happy with it, the value is there vs 282 setup.

If you go for 282/NDX eventually you will want to add xps and a hicap with 272 it will be just an xps,also with the cabling there will be an additional interconnect

So upgrade route is also way better value

Do they sound very different, not to my ears,not for the difference in the price and box count

272 is the best value item in naim price list in my opinion

If you talk in terms of VFM, then nothing in this hobby of ours presents VFM much beyond an iPod. If we always go for the best "deal" in terms of cost:sound quality ratio then most of us are not going to end up with a system that truly satisfies at the end of the day.

This is just my perspective of course. I firmly beleive that it should be approached as "What is the best sounding solution I can get for $X?" as opposed to "What is the best VFM solution up to the cost of $X?"

Surely those two questions are effectively the same?

Simon-in-Suffolk posted:

Tallan posted:

In considering a used NDX be aware that older units are not Tidal enabled without a refurb.  I don't know if this is a concern for you but since subscribing to the service about half my listening is via Tidal and I wouldn't want to be without it.  Also be advised that some 282 owners don't feel the unit reaches its full potential without a 2nd Hicap, or even a Supercap, powering it.  There are various threads here discussing this.

Can you elaborate, I have a very early NDX and it plays Tidal fine with no refurbishment necessary. Very early on many of the Naim streamer products had a free dealer upgrade, about a 30 minute task,   swapping the little streamer PCB out so as to play above 96/24 and have larger playlist buffers, is this what you are referring to? In which case you just need to check your early streaming product can play 192/24.

Regarding the 282, there are others including me that say the 282 reaches its full potential with HCapDR and the SuperCapDR actually detracts... I did not use my SuperCapDR on my 282 because of this, but instead preferred to use my HiCapDR.

Simon

I believe the upgrade is still available, but not free.

Hungryhalibut posted:

feeling_zen posted:

Emre posted:

I am using 272/300 and happy with it, the value is there vs 282 setup.

If you go for 282/NDX eventually you will want to add xps and a hicap with 272 it will be just an xps,also with the cabling there will be an additional interconnect

So upgrade route is also way better value

Do they sound very different, not to my ears,not for the difference in the price and box count

272 is the best value item in naim price list in my opinion

If you talk in terms of VFM, then nothing in this hobby of ours presents VFM much beyond an iPod. If we always go for the best "deal" in terms of cost:sound quality ratio then most of us are not going to end up with a system that truly satisfies at the end of the day.

This is just my perspective of course. I firmly beleive that it should be approached as "What is the best sounding solution I can get for $X?" as opposed to "What is the best VFM solution up to the cost of $X?"

Surely those two questions are effectively the same?

Absolutely not. They take you to different destinations.

Tom-in-Amsterdam posted:

Any recommendations or advice? 

Yes, to look around a bit more for NDXs and 282s. If €3000 is the price of the second hand units you have found, it is too much in my opinion. I have bought a nice 282 for £1950, and have seen a few NDXs in the €2500 area. Plus, if you decide for a 282/300 you'll need at least one HiCap for the preamp – as, I see now, B_LUND has already remarked. If I can throw in a totally personal and subjective opinion, you don't really need DR power amps or PSUs; I have owned a 200DR and twice HCDRs, I have accurately listened to a 300DR and a non-DR 300, and am now using a non-DR Supercap on my 282, and to these ears the benefits of a Supercap, even non-DR, over a HC on the preamp are audible, although not spectacular. I acknowledge the changes brought by the DR technology but I am not totally sure they provide better sound in absolute terms. My Supercap is a late olive one refurbished by Naim to the newer front fascia, and including a full recap it costed me €1500, much less than a new HC. A little patience and some browsing will help you spend less and have more I believe.

Hope this helps,

Max

ChrisSU posted:

Simon-in-Suffolk posted:

Tallan posted:

In considering a used NDX be aware that older units are not Tidal enabled without a refurb.  I don't know if this is a concern for you but since subscribing to the service about half my listening is via Tidal and I wouldn't want to be without it.  Also be advised that some 282 owners don't feel the unit reaches its full potential without a 2nd Hicap, or even a Supercap, powering it.  There are various threads here discussing this.

Can you elaborate, I have a very early NDX and it plays Tidal fine with no refurbishment necessary. Very early on many of the Naim streamer products had a free dealer upgrade, about a 30 minute task,   swapping the little streamer PCB out so as to play above 96/24 and have larger playlist buffers, is this what you are referring to? In which case you just need to check your early streaming product can play 192/24.

Regarding the 282, there are others including me that say the 282 reaches its full potential with HCapDR and the SuperCapDR actually detracts... I did not use my SuperCapDR on my 282 because of this, but instead preferred to use my HiCapDR.

Simon

I believe the upgrade is still available, but not free.

I have an early NDX which didn't have the 24/192 board which was outside the window of free upgrades which only applied to units purchased close to the new version being released and mine was ex demo.  The cost to upgrade the board last summer was just over £350 and was done in a  morning by a local dealer.  It allows multiroom to other Naim streamers, including the Muso's as well as Tidal.

Richard

Pete Lewthwaite posted:

The first and simplest one is one you have suggested and been widely supported as simple, elegant and good value which would be:

MAC Mini -> Hugo -> 272 -> 300

Why would you go for a 272 in this setup rather than a 282? Seems a lot of redundancy there.