Serious case of upgraditis, what to do

Dave***t posted:

Pete Lewthwaite posted:

The first and simplest one is one you have suggested and been widely supported as simple, elegant and good value which would be:

MAC Mini -> Hugo -> 272 -> 300

Why would you go for a 272 in this setup rather than a 282? Seems a lot of redundancy there.

Yup. Why bother with a 272 if you are just going to use it as an analogue preamp? A 202 will do the same thing without the redundancy as well for less money (even with a Psu like FCXS).

By far the easiest thing to do would be to get a 282 and Hicap, and use the Hugo and Mac. Alternatively it would be worth trying the Hugo TT instead of the 282, as some seem to prefer this option. 

Advice ? - Go to a dealer and listen to the options. Only you can decide what option is best for your budget and your ears 

well here is another idea : I found NAC 172 to be a very capable preamp.

feeling_zen posted:

Dave***t posted:

Pete Lewthwaite posted:

The first and simplest one is one you have suggested and been widely supported as simple, elegant and good value which would be:

MAC Mini -> Hugo -> 272 -> 300

Why would you go for a 272 in this setup rather than a 282? Seems a lot of redundancy there.

Yup. Why bother with a 272 if you are just going to use it as an analogue preamp? A 202 will do the same thing without the redundancy as well for less money (even with a Psu like FCXS).

OOPs. Sorry yes the Hugo is redundant in this config,

I made the silly assumption that streaming would involve internet streaming when the OP mentioned 2 options of 272 or NDX. Without this then the whole post seems wrong so best I just remove it.

Tom-in-Amsterdam posted:

In a few days I'll be stepping up from NaitXS, hugo + mini to 300 (non-dr). As I have not decided on the pre + streaming yet I thought it would be best to ask for advice.

I'm currently considering secondhand NDX (3000 eur) + 282 (3000 eur) vs 272 (new, 4500 eur).  I have about 5k to spend so 6 would be a bit of a stretch. Would the 282+NDX better the 272 much?

Any recommendations or advice? 

if you have the 300 already, then i would suggest trying Hugo directly into the 300 vs Hugo into 282 then 300. 

The Hugo has a built in pre-amp, and quite a few of us (myself included) are using it directly into a power amp with very good results. 

I have heard NDX + 282 vs 272 on a number of occasions, the former combination sounds significantly better, and so it should give the significant price difference. 

Tom-in-Amsterdam posted:

I'm also thinking of only buying the 282 and keeping the hugo+mini instead of buying the NDX. I would be keeping the mini anyways as its just too comfortable at the moment serving as a multipurpose hub. Downside is the MediaCenter app that I still don't like (1yrs+ use). 

 

 

To my ears, the Hugo into 282 sounds quite bit better than the NDX into 282. 

Thanks all for your insightfull responses. Yes the mini is a Mac mini (latest generation).

If I summarize the above suggestions I come up with several combinations:

Keep the cdp:
Cd5x+flatcap + 300 + 282 + HiCap + Ndx&nas  (7 shelves)
Cd5x+flatcap + 300 + 282 + HiCap + Ndx&hugo&mini (7 shelves + mac mini&hugo on bottom)
Cd5x+flatcap + 300 + 282 + HiCap + nd5xs (7 shelves)
Cd5x+flatcap + 300 + 282 + HiCap + Hugo&mini (6 shelves, mini on bottom)
Cd5x+flatcap + 300+ 272 (5 shelves)

Sell the cdp:
300 + 282 + HiCap + Hugo&mini (5 shelves, but the rather dissonating mini & hugo in the fraim)
300 + 272 &nas (4 shelves)

I really don't want to buy more fraim at this point which removes many options. Cost wise selling the cd5x and flatcap would be the ideal situation leaving me with the choice between 282 & non-naim streaming app and the 272. 

For now I will try to get a demo of a 272 and 282 to see what's what.

Kr,
Tom

For a low cost neat solution:

MM/Audirvana - Gustard U12 - Hugo - 300  (the only cost to frying is the isolator as you have the rest, but it is cheap enough that you might consider it worth a punt).

or even neater and even better:

MM/Audirvana - HugoTT - 300 

or superlative, if a tad costly:

MM/Audirvana - Dave - 300

with possible alternative of Uniti Core in place of MM/Audirvana, or Melco N1A etc.

trickydickie posted:

ChrisSU posted:

Simon-in-Suffolk posted:

Tallan posted:

In considering a used NDX be aware that older units are not Tidal enabled without a refurb.  I don't know if this is a concern for you but since subscribing to the service about half my listening is via Tidal and I wouldn't want to be without it.  Also be advised that some 282 owners don't feel the unit reaches its full potential without a 2nd Hicap, or even a Supercap, powering it.  There are various threads here discussing this.

Can you elaborate, I have a very early NDX and it plays Tidal fine with no refurbishment necessary. Very early on many of the Naim streamer products had a free dealer upgrade, about a 30 minute task,   swapping the little streamer PCB out so as to play above 96/24 and have larger playlist buffers, is this what you are referring to? In which case you just need to check your early streaming product can play 192/24.

Regarding the 282, there are others including me that say the 282 reaches its full potential with HCapDR and the SuperCapDR actually detracts... I did not use my SuperCapDR on my 282 because of this, but instead preferred to use my HiCapDR.

Simon

I believe the upgrade is still available, but not free.

I have an early NDX which didn't have the 24/192 board which was outside the window of free upgrades which only applied to units purchased close to the new version being released and mine was ex demo.  The cost to upgrade the board last summer was just over £350 and was done in a  morning by a local dealer.  It allows multiroom to other Naim streamers, including the Muso's as well as Tidal.

Richard

Glad this is settled; I misspoke using the word "refurb" - upgrade would have been more accurate.  I conflated the two because I recently considered a used original-release NDX and was told, perhaps inaccurately, that in order to enable Tidal support it would have to go back to Naim.  Had that been the case I would have had the unit refurbed as well as updated; in the end I settled on a new ND5XS instead, with the intent to save for NDS/555 down the road.  I've been very happy with the ND5XS, BTW, which I'm using as a streamer into my NDAC. 

Tallan posted:

 

Glad this is settled; I misspoke using the word "refurb" - upgrade would have been more accurate.  I conflated the two because I recently considered a used original-release NDX and was told, perhaps inaccurately, that in order to enable Tidal support it would have to go back to Naim.  Had that been the case I would have had the unit refurbed as well as updated; in the end I settled on a new ND5XS instead, with the intent to save for NDS/555 down the road.  I've been very happy with the ND5XS, BTW, which I'm using as a streamer into my NDAC. 

I originally had an ND5XS, which I upgraded By adding an external DAC like you (except mine was a Hugo). Then I found that Audirvana on Mac Mini via Gustard sounded better than ND5XS in that rendering role (streaming as you put it). But I haven't compared with NDX in the same  role.

One thing you haven't mentioned is what speakers you intend to use with this system. Are they particularly hard to drive? I ask because you intend to buy a disproportionately expensive power amp, a preamp that is one step lower down the Naim ladder, and a CD player that is a couple of steps down again. This doesn't look to me like a sensible way to build a system, more like a possible path of eternal dissatisfaction as you spend a lot of cash trying to make it sound right. I would suggest a visit to a dealer or two to listen to some different options would be a good idea before you commit to anything. 

ChrisSU posted:

One thing you haven't mentioned is what speakers you intend to use with this system. Are they particularly hard to drive? I ask because you intend to buy a disproportionately expensive power amp, a preamp that is one step lower down the Naim ladder, and a CD player that is a couple of steps down again. This doesn't look to me like a sensible way to build a system, more like a possible path of eternal dissatisfaction as you spend a lot of cash trying to make it sound right. I would suggest a visit to a dealer or two to listen to some different options would be a good idea before you commit to anything. 

Couldn't agree more spend some time at your dealers to establish which are the best options to suit just take your time.

ChrisSU posted:

One thing you haven't mentioned is what speakers you intend to use with this system. Are they particularly hard to drive? I ask because you intend to buy a disproportionately expensive power amp, a preamp that is one step lower down the Naim ladder, and a CD player that is a couple of steps down again. This doesn't look to me like a sensible way to build a system, more like a possible path of eternal dissatisfaction as you spend a lot of cash trying to make it sound right. I would suggest a visit to a dealer or two to listen to some different options would be a good idea before you commit to anything. 

Profile says Driade 75. Means nothing to me, though quick googling finds secondhand ones for very low cost, so possibly pretty old (not necessarily anything wrong with that), or low end, which may not do justice to what the rest of the system will be capable of. More info on those might help...

But some of the suggestions for source are not "below" a 300 in quality, while many people suggest 300 should get the most out of many speakers. 

[@mention:41551091830475636] I understand your concerns; my speakers are Linn Majik 140 and I only have the cdp to accomodate the misses who (very) occasionally likes to play some old cds for the kids.

Would you say a 272 or 282 is not enough for the 300s? 

Innocent Bystander posted:

ChrisSU posted:

One thing you haven't mentioned is what speakers you intend to use with this system. Are they particularly hard to drive? I ask because you intend to buy a disproportionately expensive power amp, a preamp that is one step lower down the Naim ladder, and a CD player that is a couple of steps down again. This doesn't look to me like a sensible way to build a system, more like a possible path of eternal dissatisfaction as you spend a lot of cash trying to make it sound right. I would suggest a visit to a dealer or two to listen to some different options would be a good idea before you commit to anything. 

Profile says Driade 75. Means nothing to me, though quick googling finds secondhand ones for very low cost, so possibly pretty old (not necessarily anything wrong with that), or low end, which may not do justice to what the rest of the system will be capable of. More info on those might help...

But some of the suggestions for source are not "below" a 300 in quality, while many people suggest 300 should get the most out of many speakers. 

The last thing we need is to turn this thread into yet another source first debate, but I think the real issue is that going into the purchase of a 300 without a clear plan for the whole system is a very risky approach. 

ChrisSU posted:

The last thing we need is to turn this thread into yet another source first debate, but I think the real issue is that going into the purchase of a 300 without a clear plan for the whole system is a very risky approach. 

Agreed. Long term plan is to keep the box count at max 5 and be happy.

I''ve chosen the 300s as they came for a good price and I like to play at lower volumes. I play lots of classical music but also quite a lot of house (electro / techno) and folk music. 

At this moment I can match the 300 with either a 272 or 282. Another move to 252 could be possible but that depends also on new products such as ndx2 or 372 which at this point is pure speculation. 

Tom - may I suggest something completely unorthodox?

Please audition all the components - from your posts and responses I get a feeling you have not actually heard any of the boxes and seem to be choosing them purely on paper. Of course 'desktop research' is important. But you are now considering upper echelons of Naim equipment and buying blind at this level (even secondhand) appears to be a bit of a recipe for disaster.

If I misunderstood - please accept my apologies.

Naim can be a source of endless musical pleasures - but it takes some choosing. Also setting up such high-level equipment requires a certain degree of prior experience, to maximise their potential.

Tom-in-Amsterdam posted:

[@mention:41551091830475636] I understand your concerns; my speakers are Linn Majik 140 and I only have the cdp to accomodate the misses who (very) occasionally likes to play some old cds for the kids.

Would you say a 272 or 282 is not enough for the 300s? 

I'm the wrong person to ask as I'd be thinking of using the Hugo, or better still TT, direct intomthe power amp,and omit the preamp completely!

Tom-in-Amsterdam posted:

[@mention:41551091830475636] I understand your concerns; my speakers are Linn Majik 140 and I only have the cdp to accomodate the misses who (very) occasionally likes to play some old cds for the kids.

Would you say a 272 or 282 is not enough for the 300s? 

There are lots of people using a 300 with either of those preamps, so you should be fine. I wouldn't use the Majiks with a 300 long term as they won't show how good the system is, but it's better to have weaker speakers on the end of a good amplifier than the other way round. You can always change them later and if you buy secondhand you can pick up great speakers for not much money. 

One thing I'd advise you. Don't stress too much. Whether an NDX/282/Hicap or a 272/XPS it really doesn't matter. They are both good. When you get it home and play your music it will be good and that's what matters. You can compare endlessly, read others' comments endlessly and end up going up your own bottom. When I bought my electronics I asked nobody and certainly didn't mention it on the Forum.  I chose it because I wanted as few boxes as possible and no more than two mains plugs. There may be better options but I really don't care. As to the Chord based options they may be better again. I don't know because I've never heard them, nor do I feel the need to. I hope that's vaguely helpful. 

The HH is right.  Both the 282 and 272 will groove with the 300.   

Regards,

Lindsay

while i too would ordinarily advocate demos, in this case it seems pretty straightforward: the 300 is "bought and paid for" and Tom already has an excellent DAC, so to me 282/Hicap is the clear path forward. if the units are approaching 10 years old, have them serviced by Class A and you're in business!

feeling_zen posted:

Emre posted:

I am using 272/300 and happy with it, the value is there vs 282 setup.

If you go for 282/NDX eventually you will want to add xps and a hicap with 272 it will be just an xps,also with the cabling there will be an additional interconnect

So upgrade route is also way better value

Do they sound very different, not to my ears,not for the difference in the price and box count

272 is the best value item in naim price list in my opinion

If you talk in terms of VFM, then nothing in this hobby of ours presents VFM much beyond an iPod. If we always go for the best "deal" in terms of cost:sound quality ratio then most of us are not going to end up with a system that truly satisfies at the end of the day.

This is just my perspective of course. I firmly beleive that it should be approached as "What is the best sounding solution I can get for $X?" as opposed to "What is the best VFM solution up to the cost of $X?"

272 VS 282/NDX a good sounding, similar sounding solution vs the price different

Also if you already have NDX and add a Hugo it is a choice of dac

But I would like to compare Dave vs 282/hugo as a pre/dac solution

If you like the chord dac you might skip the naim pre and get a better chord in this case Dave,  282+PS+NDX+hugo  vs Dave

Which combo will sing with 300NAP

Running 272/XPS with Nap 300 in the study and it sounds great! Powering the Totem Forest Signatures.