Naim Nac-N272 vs Cambridge 851E, N, D with ATC SCM50ASLT

Tesilk posted:

There is an opinion, that the sound signature is mainly made by amps and speakers, in my case both ATC. So streamers, Dacs and preamps just serve to pass the signal with as low influence as possible....

Dacs and preamps can have a profound influence on sound IMO. I recently compared Hugo TT to Dave and they were very different, not at all subtle.

Preamps can colour the sound, IMO the best preamps are the most transparent.

Tesilk posted:

Timo posted:

Is buying Naim kit difficult in Moscow? No chance to demo??? It seems there are quite a few Naim dealers, and considering the degree of income inequality in Moscow (super-rich rather than Richer Sound...) I would have thought that these dealers stock the full Naim ladder... And since you have rather posh speakers, I would have thought you want posh electronics as well.

It is. Prices are multiplied x2 in comparison with 2013, when exchange rates doubled,  therefore few dealers we have here can't afford demo items as I understand. So they bring one item after another, and just in preorder. 

So once the box is opened, it is not considered as a new unit, and is more difficult to sell for them...therefore the only option often is to read reviews and to take a risk.

That's indeed rubbish. Maybe making a daytrip to a European city where you could audition a good range of Naim kit? This might be cheaper than buying the "wrong" kit. I am relatively knew to Naim, but my short experience is that one quickly wants more once bitten by the Naim bug... Even though Naim might sell well in the second-hand market, there are considerable lossess...

Introducing a preamp into a Dave to active speaker like setup will degrade transparency/sound quality.

Halloween Man posted:

Tesilk if u only have a digital source then if I were you then I would connect a Chord DAC (such as Dave) straight into your ATC active speakers for best sq.

In fact that's what I do and have to say it's rather good 

Sensible advice. No point in over complicating things. 

 

 

There is also another opinion that what is lost at source cannot be made up later on in the chain.

This argument is trotted out perenially as if by rote by those arguing 'source first', but is a meaningless statement as you also cannot get out what any component doesn't pass through, which includes amp and speakers, the weakest links in the system limiting what you hear, whichever components they may be. Against that the primary argument for a major focus on the speakers is because they most influence the character of the sound - but that is not blindly saying 'speakers first' not least because of course the very behaviour of speakers can be adversely affected by an amp not up to the job. Overall considerations need to take into account the effect of all components, though that may be moderated by any upgrade intent, especially in the short term when limitations might be more acceptable in the promise of realisation of the full potential soon.

Curiously the one valid argument for strong consideration to be had for the source is rarely mentioned: namely that if any component modifies the signal in any way, e,g. limiting, enhancing colouring or distorting (whether spectral range, dynamics or timing etc), that modification is carried through by the subsequent components, each then superimposing its own 'signature', however more or less significant that might be: so a bad source will sound bad however good the speakers are. However, with modern digital sources it seems that even quite low down the cost spectrum sources may not be bad as such, just not as good as others, while as with everything the law of diminishing returns comes into play, and available budget, especially If limited, presents a challenge as to where most benefit arises to the intended listener.

in this case, however, the OP has the speakers and power amp, so the question is simply one of what source and preamp within his budget are best (bearing in mind that some DACs do not need a separate preamp if analogue sources aren't used)

Timo posted:

That's indeed rubbish. Maybe making a daytrip to a European city where you could audition a good range of Naim kit? This might be cheaper than buying the "wrong" kit. 

This is a good suggestion, depending on exactly where you are and your travel capability. But given that you already have the active speakers, you would need to track down a dealer with the same speakers who can also demonstrate the preamps and DACs you're interested in, assuming it is not feasible to drive taking your speakers with you.

Hi Serge

From my own experiences with Naim kit, and with my DacMagic, I fully believe in the improvements possible when you add an external power supply like the XPS or 555. With my DacMagic, I bought a simple external PS from a UK company that significantly improved it and added weight and detail (circa £100 IIRC so not really in the same league price wise as the Naim equivalents, nor as sophisticated!).

So I think the 272 has more to give than the DAC currently made by Cambridge Audio in the kit you've described. It could be argued that you will go slightly sideways in terms of overall quality, but those elements of musical reproduction that I value - dynamics and general musicality over brightly lit detail - will become more obvious and pleasurable, even if you're perhaps not blown away by the improvement. When you add your external PS as funds permit, I expect you'll fully realise the benefits of your decision.

All the best

Tesilk posted:

Timo posted:

Is buying Naim kit difficult in Moscow? No chance to demo??? It seems there are quite a few Naim dealers, and considering the degree of income inequality in Moscow (super-rich rather than Richer Sound...) I would have thought that these dealers stock the full Naim ladder... And since you have rather posh speakers, I would have thought you want posh electronics as well.

It is. Prices are multiplied x2 in comparison with 2013, when exchange rates doubled,  therefore few dealers we have here can't afford demo items as I understand. So they bring one item after another, and just in preorder. 

So once the box is opened, it is not considered as a new unit, and is more difficult to sell for them...therefore the only option often is to read reviews and to take a risk.

That's what I did when I bought my ATC SCM50ASLTs, no regrets so far

 

same story here in Turkey so " have a demo " and " trust your ears " advice is not helpfull at all..... we trust our UK friends to do that for us before spending our hard earned and highly volatile currencies  

I have ATC SCM50ASLTs with Anniversary amp packs; I have previously had SCM50ASLs and SCM25As. I strongly suggest you listen to Chord DACs! The Hugo (shortly to be superseded by the Hugo2) sounded very fine in my system, and ime they get commensurately better as you go up the range. 

Peter Earnshaw posted:

Hi Serge

 

From my own experiences with Naim kit, and with my DacMagic, I fully believe in the improvements possible when you add an external power supply like the XPS or 555. With my DacMagic, I bought a simple external PS from a UK company that significantly improved it and added weight and detail (circa £100 IIRC so not really in the same league price wise as the Naim equivalents, nor as sophisticated!).

 

So I think the 272 has more to give than the DAC currently made by Cambridge Audio in the kit you've described. It could be argued that you will go slightly sideways in terms of overall quality, but those elements of musical reproduction that I value - dynamics and general musicality over brightly lit detail - will become more obvious and pleasurable, even if you're perhaps not blown away by the improvement. When you add your external PS as funds permit, I expect you'll fully realise the benefits of your decision.

 

All the best

Thanks Peter,

if you have a video recording of what it sounds like with ATCs connected to 272 - please give us a link to it.

I think we can feel the "sound signature" even like this

Otherwise, it is a full time job to organise a trip to Europe to find a dealer who has both...

Best,

Serge

Emre posted:

Tesilk posted:

Timo posted:

Is buying Naim kit difficult in Moscow? No chance to demo??? It seems there are quite a few Naim dealers, and considering the degree of income inequality in Moscow (super-rich rather than Richer Sound...) I would have thought that these dealers stock the full Naim ladder... And since you have rather posh speakers, I would have thought you want posh electronics as well.

It is. Prices are multiplied x2 in comparison with 2013, when exchange rates doubled,  therefore few dealers we have here can't afford demo items as I understand. So they bring one item after another, and just in preorder. 

So once the box is opened, it is not considered as a new unit, and is more difficult to sell for them...therefore the only option often is to read reviews and to take a risk.

That's what I did when I bought my ATC SCM50ASLTs, no regrets so far

 

same story here in Turkey so " have a demo " and " trust your ears " advice is not helpfull at all..... we trust our UK friends to do that for us before spending our hard earned and highly volatile currencies  

Totally agree)

Tesilk posted:

if you have a video recording of what it sounds like with ATCs connected to 272 - please give us a link to it.

I think we can feel the "sound signature" even like this

That's a new one on me (though I have sometimes come across utube videos claiming "hear the new xxx") -

The only way such a video could possibly convey the character in a way that can be interpreted by the viewer (listener) would be by a direct A-B comparison with some reference known to the viewer, recorded under exactly the same conditions (microphone, room etc), otherwise you may simply be hearing the characteristics of the recording. 

similarly using the same recording conditions it could be possible to compare the sound of  two different items of kit - but only within the limitations of the recording, so if, for example, one of the components being compared is missing or exaggerates the top or bottom end, if the microphone isn't responding in that range  you'd have no idea of the difference when listening to the recording.

well guys, too complicated, it will be much easier to take a risk and buy the 272, and as always we can take the final decision after few months (or years) of listening.

I really appreciate your inputs and help.

Will be happy to inform you when I will be a Naim family member finally! 

Best,

Serge

Hi, Forum newbiie here. System notes and a query to follow elsewhere. Re the NAC 272 I have one, and upgraded it after several weeks with the XPS DR. The difference this power supply makes to 272 is truly dramatic with a much more open sound, and would suggest its money in the overall budget very well spent. Philip

Serge,

There is a general philosophy surrounding Naim that a system must be constructed source first but a few of us don't necessarily hold with that view - I think a more balanced approach focussing on synergy and speaker/room integration is better.   I don't know your speakers but I would suggest that a 272/250dr would be a big step up.

Good luck.

Lindsay

The Strat (Fender) posted:

Serge,

There is a general philosophy surrounding Naim that a system must be constructed source first but a few of us don't necessarily hold with that view - I think a more balanced approach focussing on synergy and speaker/room integration is better.   I don't know your speakers but I would suggest that a 272/250dr would be a big step up.

Good luck.

Lindsay

Thanks Lindsay,

I have active ATC SCM50ASLTs, so the power amp issue is resolved also...therefore I need only 272 and probably XPS DR later or sooner

I wouldn't - but only because Serge has active ATCs!!

Getting a 272 is the way I'd go, and add a XPSDR later, which as others have said lifts the 272 to a whole new level. 

As Serge already has a streaming setup the Naim will slot right in. If he went the other way with a Chord DAC, there is the job of setting up the necessary computer and working out how to control it. That's not to say it may or may not be better, which I can't comment on. All I know is that controlling everything off the Naim app is really easy. 

Hungryhalibut posted:

I wouldn't - but only because Serge has active ATCs!!

Getting a 272 is the way I'd go, and add a XPSDR later, which as others have said lifts the 272 to a whole new level. 

As Serge already has a streaming setup the Naim will slot right in. If he went the other way with a Chord DAC, there is the job of setting up the necessary computer and working out how to control it. That's not to say it may or may not be better, which I can't comment on. All I know is that controlling everything off the Naim app is really easy. 

Thanks, thats what I do now with the Cambridge app. I have 3 NAS servers (WD) total capacity 36 TB, so the streaming is the way to go I think also.

Hungryhalibut posted:

I wouldn't - but only because Serge has active ATCs!!

Getting a 272 is the way I'd go, and add a XPSDR later, which as others have said lifts the 272 to a whole new level. 

As Serge already has a streaming setup the Naim will slot right in. If he went the other way with a Chord DAC, there is the job of setting up the necessary computer and working out how to control it. That's not to say it may or may not be better, which I can't comment on. All I know is that controlling everything off the Naim app is really easy. 

Ooops didn't recognise that - yes 272+XPS is the answer.

Merci encore! 

Serge

BTW what is the difference between XPS 2 and XPS DR?

Tesilk posted:

Hungryhalibut posted:

I wouldn't - but only because Serge has active ATCs!!

Getting a 272 is the way I'd go, and add a XPSDR later, which as others have said lifts the 272 to a whole new level. 

As Serge already has a streaming setup the Naim will slot right in. If he went the other way with a Chord DAC, there is the job of setting up the necessary computer and working out how to control it. That's not to say it may or may not be better, which I can't comment on. All I know is that controlling everything off the Naim app is really easy. 

Thanks, thats what I do now with the Cambridge app. I have 3 NAS servers (WD) total capacity 36 TB, so the streaming is the way to go I think also.

Streaming is the only way to go with such a vast collection.

I would also suggest N272 + power supply. If you can stretch to 555PS  I'd suggest you go for this one.

Appart from immediate improvements it will also be future-proof if you ever decide to upgrade your source or your streaming pre-amp.

Tesilk posted:

BTW what is the difference between XPS 2 and XPS DR?

The DR version is much better basically. 

Hungryhalibut posted:

As Serge already has a streaming setup the Naim will slot right in. If he went the other way with a Chord DAC, there is the job of setting up the necessary computer and working out how to control it. That's not to say it may or may not be better, which I can't comment on. All I know is that controlling everything off the Naim app is really easy. 

Hasn't Serge also already got a Cambridge 851N, which has a digital output?

It's a bit moot, given the geography and lack of auditioning possibilities. But in an ideal world the comparison I'd want to make would be between a 272 and the 851 into a Hugo TT. Roughly the same outlay. Not sure what the CA interface is like, though, and a 272 would look much more elegant.

Tesilk posted:

BTW what is the difference between XPS 2 and XPS DR?

It's a technical difference in the voltage regulator circuitry.  As HH says, from a sound perspective the DR is just better.

For a technical description there's an article available from Naim:
A technical white paper on the Naim Audio Discrete Regulator technology is available here.