Powerline(s) with Arcam A39 & DAC V1

DanT87 posted:

Thank you all for the advice, I will calm down with the cables.

Quickly I am understanding the power amp option would have perhaps been a better choice along side the DAC V1 and in the future I see this as being my next step up. When I bought the DAC V1 I was unaware of the brand generally but loved the sound compared to my old dacmagic 100, so it seems I have stumbled on nice problem to have. 

My only reservation with regards to the 200 is, although it has been said above it should suit the 683s, I find advice on the 683 being quite a power hungry speaker, which was partly why I was attracted to the Arcam with it being 120w into 8ohm and from listening so far it drives them easily. 

That being said I'm a novice 70w from the 200 for all I know is plenty. 

 

 

My advice would be not to reflect too much on the watts issue.  I'm not greatly technically minded, however, one thing I have learnt over my years of Naim use is that the current their power amps can muster is where the secret lies.  I had a 200 powering B&W 704's years ago, no problem.  Earlier Bowers speakers seemed to be quite demanding whilst it seems the newer versions are a little more current friendly.  

I'll echo the many recommendations here and say do your research, get to a dealer and talk to them about what you want.  Let them give you some pointers and then most decent Naim dealers will let you try items at home to see what you really think before you shell out your hard earned! 

I gave up buying solely on the back of recommendations from magazines and forums years ago.  Whilst they can point you in a certain direction, it may not be the direction you want to take.  By all means, ask for recommendations, but then listen first and know you made the right decision, unless of course you can buy and get your money back without loss if you don like it.

Most Naim dealers I've met are passionate about the brand and know their stuff, which usually pays dividends in the end.

Whatever you choose to do, good luck and enjoy!

Once you pair the Dac V1 with a Naim Power Amp you can finally enjoy your speakers properly. I would not be surprised if even the half-sized Nap 100 can drive your speakers. Your speakers will grow.

... when you squeeze the last watts out of a Naim Amp, it will stay fully in control.

Like the other Englishman 007.

Although I appreciate the others' questioning of the arcam as it has a different voice from the Naim voice, I look more askance at your 683s because I'm not a fan. They have a very impressive big sound, but their construction doesn't really allow them to drive music with nuance and resolution, so a bit of a broad strokes animal. Great for parties of course, and to fill big rooms, just not quite in the same fidelity class as I like (think neat sx2, kudos x2, Rega rx3). Now, the initial class A delivery of the arcam might be giving you that so we're in a difficult place to advise in that respect. It's an unusual system, that's for sure and it's certainly opened your ears to something interesting. 

On the question of whether a 200 can drive 683s, yes, no question. The overall power rating in any amplifier only really comes into play when playing seriously loud. Take for example your arcam. It runs something called class G. This is a hybrid system where at low power usage below 20w it runs in pure class A which is highly inefficient but avoids a nasty kind of distortion in the midband. When more power is required it automatically flips to (I think) class D, an efficient switching delivery which allows it to pump the power to 120w. Now, at normal listening levels you are unlikely to exceed the 20w so you remain in the sweet spot without having to exploit the extra power reserves except when there are crescendoes and the like. However, to do this the arcam has a serious power supply in it so it can give you the cleanest 20w in class A you can imagine while delivering those 120 when required. The specs say the amp's maximum consumption is 1kw which is frankly extraordinary at this cost level and the technology being employed.

The 200, by contrast, is a different philosophy. It's a relatively straightforward design - a classic if you will. It too has a relatively large power supply, though not likely as large as that in the arcam, but still capable of swinging 300 watts instantaneously through your system! But Naim's stock in trade has always been the way they put together the power supply section of the amp, usually over specified but also using the power from the wall for instantaneous juice, which is why you were told to come off the tacima. The power supply in an amp is very much the heart of the amp. Now, both arcam and Naim use a traditional supply called a linear power supply. This is less efficient than modern switched mode power supplies which you can find anywhere from your low energy bulb to a computer, but they have very specific advantages in audio terms. The important bits of a linear supply are basically a transformer and the energy storage capacitors being used to provide the energy to the amp. Now, the choices of these bits and their configuration are what differentiate one amp from the next. By necessity, arcam's implementation has to be quite different due to the tech involved. By contrast, the 200's is more streamlined as it has less to do in this system, allowing it to feed your 683s with ease, but using the philosophy of design and soundscape that Naim brings to the party, rather than arcam. Hoping this helps!

Frank.

Hello all and thanks for the knowledge you have all shared with me.

Frank, you've basically sold me a 200 but it will unfortunately have to wait a while just yet until I'm in the position again financially to take the plunge. I would have thought I could get decent money for the Arcam still having said that. 

Another part of the 200 that I like the sound of is the din connection. When i bought the din to rca lead for this current set up it made me smile after plugging in for the first time to compare, I can only imagine it would be better still using din to din with the V1 and 200.

A lot to think about here then! 

Oh no, that wasn't my intention at all! I'd hoped to give a little idea of the scope of what you were contemplating, and since the system is new, and the options - even within the Naim canon - are several, the time and space to enjoy what you have while exploring the possibilities. Ah well, best intentions and all that! 

Oh, and do make sure you're happy with the 200/683 combination at home before purchasing if possible. The balance can still be upset by other factors such as room acoustics.

Frank.

Looks like most others have steered you in the right direction but I'll give my take on things.  Typically upgrading power cords & even cables are typically best done when you're happy with your current setup & don't have any plans to upgrade boxes.  If your still thinking about upgrading, the money is likely much better spent (performance vs $) on a box upgrade.   I'm up to a 282/HiCAPDR/250DR & still don't have powerlines or Hilines.  Have thought about them plenty of times, but each time I chose to do a box upgrade instead.  Currently, I have no plans for any box upgrade for sometime, so I'll probably now look for cable upgrades.  Also as mentioned, it might be more worth while to look for a good hifi rack, if your not using one already.

As far as just looking at the watt's, there's typically more to the story.  Take a look at the power supply of both the A39 & the 200 & you might be surprised what you see, even though the 200 is rated ~half the output.  From the pics I could see on Google, the A39 had both a smaller transformer & supply capacitors.  I went from an Anthem amp that was rated over 200w per ch @ 8ohms to a NAP150X, which I believe is 50w ch @ 8 ohms.  Before I received the amp I was a little worried it would be under powered, once I hooked it up, all concerns were gone, if anything it drove my speakers better then the Anthem.  My current 250DR is rated 80watts @ 8 ohms & if you take a look, the toroidal takes up about half the case, so just looking at watts (even if their rated correctly, which is a whole other story), doesn't tell the whole picture.

 I'll also echo others about Arcam & Naim combo as being a strange match, as they tend to be a different ends of the sonic spectrum.  I'd see if you can give a 200 a demo, to get the full Naim experience & see if the sound is for you.  Its a great amp, this is what I ran before the 250DR. 

Hello all, 

I have been in touch with my local dealer and have arranged a demo of the 200dr in a few weeks time so looking forward to that very much...and will be taking it from there I guess. They also say it should drive the 683 S2 fine. 

Can I just ask for more information about how the 300va part of the 200dr works? I want to understand how this affects power to the speakers at bigger volumes...

If you are considering a new 200DR you may as well go for an exdem 250DR. 

Frank Abela posted:

Oh no, that wasn't my intention at all! I'd hoped to give a little idea of the scope of what you were contemplating, and since the system is new, and the options - even within the Naim canon - are several, the time and space to enjoy what you have while exploring the possibilities. Ah well, best intentions and all that! 

Oh, and do make sure you're happy with the 200/683 combination at home before purchasing if possible. The balance can still be upset by other factors such as room acoustics.

Frank.

I ran 683 S2's with a 200 and they worked very well. Enjoyable, plenty of Bass and a great soundstage. I got offered some ex demo S400's at a price I just could not refuse. Still yet to sell the B&W's though!

Hungryhalibut posted:

If you are considering a new 200DR you may as well go for an exdem 250DR. 

Not sure the budget will allow that, would be another £1000!?

Slim68 posted:

Frank Abela posted:

Oh no, that wasn't my intention at all! I'd hoped to give a little idea of the scope of what you were contemplating, and since the system is new, and the options - even within the Naim canon - are several, the time and space to enjoy what you have while exploring the possibilities. Ah well, best intentions and all that! 

Oh, and do make sure you're happy with the 200/683 combination at home before purchasing if possible. The balance can still be upset by other factors such as room acoustics.

Frank.

I ran 683 S2's with a 200 and they worked very well. Enjoyable, plenty of Bass and a great soundstage. I got offered some ex demo S400's at a price I just could not refuse. Still yet to sell the B&W's though!

Gosh, S400s are a very different sound from B&W, I hope you get on with them.

Frank.

Hello everyone,

After considering the advice above in the thread to try a Naim power amp I have managed to demo quite a few today. Suffice to say it is clear, Naim works better, together. 

Frankly, compared, I am astounded at the wide sound stage, the clarity, the timing and just the overall level of improvement when paired with the DAC V1. 

After hours of listening this morning to the 200 and 200dr I was......maybe too excited.....and asked to hear the 250dr.

Another level.

In the back of my mind I knew as soon as I heard it everything else would fizzle away, all the hours of listening to the previous two, unfortunately and as good as they genuinely are, didn't matter anymore. In the first ten seconds of listening I knew there was a highly likely probability this was the amplifier for me.

After a few more songs on my offline playlist in Tidal, I was over whelmed by the step between the 200dr and 250dr. 

Suffice to say today has been expensive but on the back of that, worth it. 

Id also like to say thanks to everyone who has pointed me in this direction, the system sounds fantastic. 

Thanks.

Yeah, Naim is dangerous stuff...   The next temptation: replace your DAC V1 with a 272. Start saving. 

Ahh, the upgrade bug. After years of courting Naim, I bought an NAC-N272 and NAP200DR. Shortly thereafter, I convinced myself that I owed it to myself to consider whether I "should've" went in for the 250DR from the start. Well, I'm loving the 250DR now and wouldn't you know, am wondering what kind of magic an XPS DR would bring to the equation. Dangerous indeed...

If you're getting a new 250DR be prepared for it to sound a bit off for at least the first week. You may be lucky of course. I have three and didn't really notice it with the first two but the third one made my system sound flat as a pancake for a few days. All smiles now though.

I've noticed that there is a small tweeter hiss audible only when my ear is right next to it close when the amp is switched on but not playing. Doesn't get louder when I turn the volume up on the DAC V1. 

Ive read this is common with naim, can someone confirm? 

Yep - that's normal. 

Also noticed after 2-3 hours of use the amplifier was pretty warm, not hot to touch but warm warm.

normal?

If it ain't warm it ain't workin'

I'd say a warm amp sounds better than a cool one.

DanT87 posted:

Also noticed after 2-3 hours of use the amplifier was pretty warm, not hot to touch but warm warm.

normal?

Yes, Naim use the case on many of the Classic series as the hearsink, so it will warm up.

Yeh I understand that.....just you know, big purchase and all that I wanted to be sure lol.

It wasn't like oh my god, it's uncomfortable to touch, but just, warmer than the Arcam would have got if that makes sense? 

Also, id like to understand more about the built in heat cut off if it was to get unhealthy hot...at what point does this cut in? And is it designed to stop the amp from being damaged, or would the damage already be done at that point for example. This obviously hasn't happened, however id like to know more.

All Naim power amps have an automatic cutout which will turn them off if they reach 70 degrees C. That's not warm, it's hot, so I don't think you need to worry. If this happens, the amp is either being pushed too hard, and/or has insufficient ventilation. Proper equipment racks are generally open on all sides to allow heat to dissipate, and unless you keep yours in a closed cupboard you are unlikely to have problems. 

So long as your speakers and leads are sensible, and it's on a nice open rack with plenty of air, you can run a 250 for hours at deafening volumes before it cuts out due to overheating. I really wouldn't worry. 

I'm not sure if you are using locally stored CD quality and hires files as well as Tidal, if not you will find that Tidal is relatively poor quality in comparison. 

Hungryhalibut posted:

So long as your speakers and leads are sensible, and it's on a nice open rack with plenty of air, you can run a 250 for hours at deafening volumes before it cuts out due to overheating. I really wouldn't worry. 

I'm not sure if you are using locally stored CD quality and hires files as well as Tidal, if not you will find that Tidal is relatively poor quality in comparison. 

I'm using Tidal HiFi downloaded to an offline playlist, how exactly do you mean? 

Also the speaker cable is 3 metres long and into B&W 683 S2, what do you think?