My Mu-so debacle

Hi [@mention:13252151297830433]

Sorry to hear of your bad experience. I'm using a CDX2 and I'm still not totally sold on streaming. For a device that's designed to make access to music easier, it must be very frustrating when this sort of thing happens. I'm sure when they work well they're brilliant. But when when they don't....you just want to scream!! 

I think i would probably go postal if a dealer told me Naim wouldn't replace a faulty unit, regardless of how it was purchased.

I had reason to interact with Naim via email for Muso issues about a year ago and i eventually gave up.

It wasn't long after there was a firmware update that resolved my issue.

raised to technical support as im rather surprised to hear this story.

I think you need to get your money back asap and a new dealer... I may be entirely wrong but I'd have thought you could have ordered and paid for a new one at the price point that was current at the time. I'm afraid I don't believe that a recently bought ex demo product only "qualifies" for repair as Naim is brilliant at looking after its customers ( I even had a reply to a question on a sunday a month or so ago!)

I tried a linn DS a couple of years ago and that was a pain on my network -it was annoying and stressful. The dealer kindly turned up at my home twice and tried to get it sorted to no avail. I got rid of it and went mac mini/ dac V1 - problem free and more flexible as time goes on . Sometimes it's just better to give up and look to an alternative route. Maybe a pair of the new version of sonos 5's or after my recent trials of a chromecast audio spend just £30 and get a powered speaker or small amp/speakers

good luck!

If you read the 18th paragraph of the OP, you'll see that a full refund has already been offered and accepted. 

As the Muso worked at the dealer's but not at home, it seems highly unlikely that it was faulty, but who knows?

Have to say my experience with muso has been not dissimilar. Various attempts at resetting it and some time on the phone has resulted in it working with Spotify fed from ios devices, but not recognising anything else on the LAN. 

That I've given up and left it like that says vastly more about my tolerance for hassle than it does Naim's customer service, but I certainly wouldn't rush to recommend the product as the plug and play, mass market gadget it claims to be. 

robhiston posted:

I'm a long term Naim user (currently 250/282/CDX2) and an occasional lurker on this forum. 

I thought I would share my recent Mu-so experience here, in the hope that someone could shed some light on why it turned out to be so painful.

I had been intending to enter the world of high quality streaming for some time. My idea was to start with a (semi) portable quality streaming solution which I could move from room to room at home or other venues as required. As I had a bit of rare free time between Xmas and New Year I went along to my nearest Naim dealer to have a listen to the Mu-so. I liked what I heard. The problem was they did not have any new stock, and was advised by the dealer that ordering a new one to arrive in the New Year would involve a £100 price increase. So, somewhat against my normal judgement, I decided to take their offer of purchasing the demo machine.

At home, I first tried it as an AirPlay speaker from my iPad and the good news was that it sounded so much better than my existing portable AirPlay solution.

However, as I started putting the Mu-so through its paces using the various advertised modes and sources, there were numerous problems.

1. I could not pair it successfully from any Bluetooth device I tried - the Mu-so appeared to be announcing itself as an ARM processor rather than a Mu-so. This was eventually solved by doing a factory reset on the Mu-so, when it suddenly began to announce itself as a Mu-so, and began to accept Bluetooth connections.
2. The Naim app on iPad frequently disconnected from the Mu-so, and then "No rooms found". Recovery was sometimes possible by putting Mu-so into and out of standby using the control on the Mu-so. However, sometimes it appeared that the Mu-so had "hung", as it was unresponsive to any control, so a power cycle was necessary to restore function.
3. Streaming from the Tidal service, controlled from the Naim app on the iPad, frequently stopped half way through a track and would not resume. This was often, but not always, accompanied by the app disconnecting from the Mu-so, as above.
4. Streaming internet radio was somewhat more reliable, but was still prone to random app disconnects and mu-so hangs.

The Mu-so on purchase was not running the latest firmware. Assuming a firmware upgrade was probably the key to get it working properly,  I tried to update it. But the system would not respond to the upgrade button.  I took it back to the dealer, and they, with some difficulty, managed to get it to upgrade. We tested it on the dealer's network with Tidal and it all seemed to work, with no halted streaming and no app disconnects.

Hoping it was now sorted, back at home I was deeply disappointed to find the problems 2. 3. 4. above persisted. These problems occurred whether Mu-so was connected via Ethernet cable or Wi-Fi.

I assumed now it must be a problem with my home network so I therefore decided to try it on two other completely different home networks located at completely different physical locations. However, to my dismay, the results were broadly similar.

After the firmware upgrade, the Mu-so would not stream directly from Tidal at any quality setting. In fact the problem had become worse since the upgrade. The sound stopped exactly half way through any and every track I tried. And I literally mean half way in duration - to the nearest second. However, I could stream from my Tidal account to the Tidal native app on my iPad, and use AirPlay to the mu-so and it worked fine.  (I could even stream from Tidal over a 3G internet connection to my iPhone and iPad any AirPlay to the Mu-so and it worked reliably.)

Internet radio would stream to the Mu-so for quite lengthy periods but would eventually fail, sometimes with the app disconnect, sometimes also with a Mu-so hang. (I have two other internet radio capable devices on my home network, a Pure Evoke Flow and a Marantz M-CR611 and these can both play internet radio streams on my home network without problems.)

The network environments on which the Mu-so failed were as follows:

First network (my home network): Router: Billion BiPac 7800N, ISP: Zen Internet ADSL over copper wires. This typically performs at > 17Mbps download.

Second network:  Router: BT hub. ISP: BT ADSL over copper wires.

Third network: Router: Virgin Superhub 3. ISP: Virgin high speed fibre optic cable broadband.

 

These networks all have single point of access and no dodgy range extenders or Ethernet over mains devices. Wireless tests were conducted with the Mu-so within a few feet of the router.

I phoned my dealer and reported the ongoing problems and asked how I should proceed. After some iteration, they told me to phone Naim's Mu-so helpline which I did. After two separate calls, involving lengthy waits on hold and over two hours on the phone with two separate Naim support engineers, during which I was taken through what seemed just about every conceivable combination of reboot, re-install and reset, and was interrogated about my network and internet connection, they eventually conceded the Mu-so must be faulty, and that I should return it to my dealer and exchange for a replacement unit. When I phoned my dealer with this news, again there was some iteration, and the story was there was no new stock available and I would have to wait for new stock to come into the country. Then, to my consternation. I was advised that, as my Mu-so was an ex-demo machine, it was not covered by a manufacturer's warranty at all and Naim would not replace it. Apparently Naim would take my machine back for repair, but only if the faults reported could be reproduced in the dealer's premises. So I was off again to my dealer and the Mu-so was set up on the dealer's network. Lo and behold, it appeared to work perfectly, both with a wired and wireless internet connection.

The only choice presented to me by my dealer at this point was to return the machine and accept a refund of the purchase price. Very reluctantly, as I really wanted the Mu-so to work, I accepted this.

I have to say I have been totally dismayed by this experience with the Mu-so. To find that it works on only one of the four networks I tried in on (and that one just happens to be the dealer's) is extremely dispiriting. As was Naim's seeming reluctance finally to accept responsibility for getting a customer up and running. As a result, my confidence in the Naim brand has taken a severe knock.

I am wondering if my experience is unique. Did I get a faulty unit? Or can a streaming  device from a high quality brand like Naim really be so sensitive to network environment, when my other, far cheaper devices, seem quite happy to stream consistently and reliably from the same sources?

I'd be interested in the thoughts and views of those experienced in these matters (though please be gentle as I'm no technical expert in these matters).

I'm with HH on this one.

Very disappointing that the Muso doesn't work in your home, and very disappointed at the response from Naim (although legally it's a problem between you and your dealer) but quite honestly, I think the dealer has done himself proud by giving you a full refund (ok, a few brownie points off for being somewhat irritated at you).

Under the circumstances I would be happy to have gotten the solution you were given.

I would now consider a new unit, but only after it was installed and demonstrated in my own home, or on a strict refund basis if similar problems arise to the ex demo model.

I can't be sure, but I suspect one of two things...

1  There's another device on the networks that's conflicting with the broadcast messages used for UPnP device discovery.

2  You're not using a switch and there's another device on the networks that's conflicting with the messages used for UPnP connection or control.

3  The WiFi routers weren't configured to pass through all the standard DLNA / UPnP message types.  This is what caused problems in my network; now solved, my streaming solution is rock steady 99.95% of the time.  The only time it fails is after a power cut when the devices don't automatically start in the right order, and sometimes need to be restarted in a controlled sequence to re-establish the network communication routes.

What's the modem/router you use?

Thanks to all for the replies.

DON ATKINSON: I can't really agree the "dealer had done himself proud" by offering a refund. I don't think he had an option. I had made every effort to get it working properly on three different networks and failed. Naim telephone support had taken me through the mill and admitted the Mu-so was probably faulty.

HUGE: A conflicting device on three different networks? If that were true then uPnP is a quite staggering misnomer. The Mu-so reference manual makes no mention of needing "a switch". Naim support never mentioned this. How did you figure this out?

JAMIEWEDNESDAY: My modem/routers are listed in my OP.

As you can probably tell, I'm still badly bruised by this whole experience and wondering if HQ streaming is too much at the bleeding edge of technology for my taste. As I write this in my home office I'm listening to Tidal streaming to my iPad  and AirPlayed to a Marantz M-CR611. Not the greatest SQ - but so far it has been working 100% reliably.

Of no use to the OP who has obviously had countless problems which he has not been able to resolve.

Getting uPnP to work well is definitely not just a simple 'plug and play' process, but for many it is not so far away from this if you understand the basics and possess a decent router, a decent switch and (for most people) a decent network available storage device (or NAS).

I have used a Naim ND5 XS, a Linn Klimax Renew DS, and still own and use, a Naim Muso, a Marantz NA7004, a Linn Klimax DS/1 and a Sonore microRendu (audiophile computer).

All of them worked more or less flawlessly after I set them up, apart from the Marantz (whose control app didn't work until I upgraded my iPAD) and the Sonore microRendu that was a bit of a pain to get up and running perfectly. However, it is working more or less perfectly now.

You have obviously been unlucky, because the two Naim devices I have used, along with the IOS version of the Naim App have worked flawlessly and from day 1 in my home environment.

I suspect that your problem is one that could have been resolved fairly easily, and suggest that the next time you try (and don't discount Naim unless you find another make that you think sounds better), make sure you find a supportive dealer (or a friend who knows about these things and can help you out)  and ask your dealer to advise you on any peripheral devices (such as a switch and/or NAS) and to install the unit for you.

Given your experience, please do not go down the Sonore microRendu (or any other specialised audiophile computer) route. They do work, but only after quite some considerable pain.   

Don't give up completely, and good luck.

Rob,

I'm sorry to hear your misfortune.  Streaming can sometimes offer up frustrations, often due to home network issues.  If your ex demo Mu-So was indeed faulty then that wouldn't help matters and indeed, can often confuse things as you can be chasing the wrong problem.  But I would urge you not to give up completely.  The Support of a good dealer and also the excellent help provided by Naim themselves in sorting out possible network and router issues is key to success here, so when you've licked your wounds and got back up on your feet why not see if we on here can't help you out on your next attempt.  Until then, best wishes.

its why i have long advocated for clarity and defensive programming in apps that talk to services or hardware. It makes it far easier to debug when the problem is clearly delineated in front of you, and has a significant knock-on effect on support costs and goodwill. 

Jon, I utterly agree (I would wouldn't I, I used to work in IT systems design for an High Street financial services organisation and before that I designed scientific equipment that could kill people if it went wrong!).

Unfortunately mobile apps are the software equivalent of the retail approach of "Pile 'em high and sell 'em cheap", so reliability and quality aren't something you'll find quite so readily .

robhiston posted:

Thanks to all for the replies.

DON ATKINSON: I can't really agree the "dealer had done himself proud" by offering a refund. I don't think he had an option. I had made every effort to get it working properly on three different networks and failed. Naim telephone support had taken me through the mill and admitted the Mu-so was probably faulty.

HUGE: A conflicting device on three different networks? If that were true then uPnP is a quite staggering misnomer. The Mu-so reference manual makes no mention of needing "a switch". Naim support never mentioned this. How did you figure this out?

JAMIEWEDNESDAY: My modem/routers are listed in my OP.

As you can probably tell, I'm still badly bruised by this whole experience and wondering if HQ streaming is too much at the bleeding edge of technology for my taste. As I write this in my home office I'm listening to Tidal streaming to my iPad  and AirPlayed to a Marantz M-CR611. Not the greatest SQ - but so far it has been working 100% reliably.

Ok, fair enough "done himself proud" wasn't the most appropriate set of words perhaps, and he was irritated, which also isn't good.

But in terms of meeting his obligations, I think that under the circumstances it was the best he could do, and a solution that I would have been happy with. Why ? because despite the obvious disappointment, it would put me back at the start of my journey, no poorer, but a lot wiser.

With a new Muso, next time around, and the services of a reliable retailer, you should (hopefully) be able to enjoy reliable, high quality music.

Am I missing something here. Why would ordering a new Mu-so invoke a £100 price increase in the new year. I thought placing and order at the time would fix it at it's then current RRP.

"Then, to my consternation. I was advised that, as my Mu-so was an ex-demo machine, it was not covered by a manufacturer's warranty at all and Naim would not replace it. Apparently Naim would take my machine back for repair, but only if the faults reported could be reproduced in the dealer's premises. "

If this was my dealer's response I'd be looking for a new one. (Dealer I mean).

Is the dealer an "new" one, ie picked up since MuSo and Qb have been on offer?

They may not know how things work in NAIMland. 

If it's a full dealer then they should be castigated, it's always been my understanding if you order a new product you at that days price.

Huge posted:

Jon, I utterly agree (I would wouldn't I, I used to work in IT systems design for an High Street financial services organisation and before that I designed scientific equipment that could kill people if it went wrong!).

Unfortunately mobile apps are the software equivalent of the retail approach of "Pile 'em high and sell 'em cheap", so reliability and quality aren't something you'll find quite so readily .

Sorry to deviate from topic, but my experiences in IT are relatively similar to yours in that I worked latterly in IT design for Financial Services organisations, and whilst I never designed scientific equipment that could kill people (if it went wrong), I almost worked for an organisation where my work could have killed people if it 'went right'. As a young graduate looking for his first job, I was offered a job by a defence contractor. When I was told that the work might involve designing control mechanisms for missiles, and asked if I would have any objection to this type of work, my response was that I would have an objection. Of course, the job offer was retracted (as I had obviously expected that it would be).

Luckily for me, I have never had to live with the responsibility that any mistake I might make could end up killing someone, nor indeed with the responsibility that my 'good' designs might aid in the direct death of others.       

SHEFFIELD GRAHAM: It was between Xmas and New Year. The dealer told me they could not contact anyone at Naim to actually place an order until after the price increase.

BIGH47: The dealer had the full range of Naim kit on display, plus a lot of other classy stuff - so not a box shifter. In fact I did get the impression when I went for the demo that they thought the Mu-so was a bit "low end" for their taste.

I have to say it did annoy me greatly that when the dealer sold me the ex-demo Mu-so they failed to tell me that it had no manufacturer's warranty. Maybe the dealer didn't even realize that at point of sale.

I obviously wasn't party to the conversations between the dealer and Naim as the story unfolded. However, the fact that I was first given a definite promise of a replacement, which morphed into difficulties over sourcing a replacement, and then became the "sorry, but no replacement is possible", left a really bad taste in the mouth.

If a dealer sells something ex dem and you are therefore the first owner, it gets the full five year warranty in the U.K.  

HUNGRYHALIBUT: For the Mu-so the Naim Manufacturer's  Warranty is two years. However (and I quote) "This warranty is offered to the first purchaser only...".

I assume that Naim's position must have been that for demo kit I purchased the dealer was the first purchaser.

An interpretation of the Sale of Goods Act might be a different matter of course. I am not a lawyer, and for all I know I might have been able to insist on a replacement unit, but to be honest, by that stage the debacle already had soaked up so much of my time and energy that I somewhat reluctantly accepted the refund as the path of least resistance.

I understand your decision of course, but you were the first purchaser and get the guarantee. Maybe it's only two years on the mu-so, in which case, my mistake. Everything I've bought exdem has had the full warranty, even if it's a year or two old at the time of purchase. 

Interestingly, I've just looked up the mu-so guarantee as I have a Qb. It is indeed only guaranteed for two years, not five like other Naim stuff. I also see that Naim do not offer a repair service after the two years. So I guess that if it conks out in its third year or later, it's off to the recycling centre with it. Given that it has no moving parts you'd hope that if it lasts two years it will keep on going. 

robhiston posted:

SHEFFIELD GRAHAM: It was between Xmas and New Year. The dealer told me they could not contact anyone at Naim to actually place an order until after the price increase.

BIGH47: The dealer had the full range of Naim kit on display, plus a lot of other classy stuff - so not a box shifter. In fact I did get the impression when I went for the demo that they thought the Mu-so was a bit "low end" for their taste.

I have to say it did annoy me greatly that when the dealer sold me the ex-demo Mu-so they failed to tell me that it had no manufacturer's warranty. Maybe the dealer didn't even realize that at point of sale.

I obviously wasn't party to the conversations between the dealer and Naim as the story unfolded. However, the fact that I was first given a definite promise of a replacement, which morphed into difficulties over sourcing a replacement, and then became the "sorry, but no replacement is possible", left a really bad taste in the mouth.

 

I would have thought an order placed by e-mail would have sorted that out.

Hungryhalibut posted:

Interestingly, I've just looked up the mu-so guarantee as I have a Qb. It is indeed only guaranteed for two years, not five like other Naim stuff. I also see that Naim do not offer a repair service after the two years. So I guess that if it conks out in its third year or later, it's off to the recycling centre with it. Given that it has no moving parts you'd hope that if it lasts two years it will keep on going. 

I'd be gutted if I'd spent a grand and had to bin it after 2 years. Surely as part of the design would be boards that could be serviced or replaced?