My Mu-so debacle

Posted by: robhiston on 29 January 2017

I'm a long term Naim user (currently 250/282/CDX2) and an occasional lurker on this forum.

I thought I would share my recent Mu-so experience here, in the hope that someone could shed some light on why it turned out to be so painful.

I had been intending to enter the world of high quality streaming for some time. My idea was to start with a (semi) portable quality streaming solution which I could move from room to room at home or other venues as required. As I had a bit of rare free time between Xmas and New Year I went along to my nearest Naim dealer to have a listen to the Mu-so. I liked what I heard. The problem was they did not have any new stock, and was advised by the dealer that ordering a new one to arrive in the New Year would involve a £100 price increase. So, somewhat against my normal judgement, I decided to take their offer of purchasing the demo machine.

At home, I first tried it as an AirPlay speaker from my iPad and the good news was that it sounded so much better than my existing portable AirPlay solution.

However, as I started putting the Mu-so through its paces using the various advertised modes and sources, there were numerous problems.

1. I could not pair it successfully from any Bluetooth device I tried - the Mu-so appeared to be announcing itself as an ARM processor rather than a Mu-so. This was eventually solved by doing a factory reset on the Mu-so, when it suddenly began to announce itself as a Mu-so, and began to accept Bluetooth connections.
2. The Naim app on iPad frequently disconnected from the Mu-so, and then "No rooms found". Recovery was sometimes possible by putting Mu-so into and out of standby using the control on the Mu-so. However, sometimes it appeared that the Mu-so had "hung", as it was unresponsive to any control, so a power cycle was necessary to restore function.
3. Streaming from the Tidal service, controlled from the Naim app on the iPad, frequently stopped half way through a track and would not resume. This was often, but not always, accompanied by the app disconnecting from the Mu-so, as above.
4. Streaming internet radio was somewhat more reliable, but was still prone to random app disconnects and mu-so hangs.

The Mu-so on purchase was not running the latest firmware. Assuming a firmware upgrade was probably the key to get it working properly, I tried to update it. But the system would not respond to the upgrade button. I took it back to the dealer, and they, with some difficulty, managed to get it to upgrade. We tested it on the dealer's network with Tidal and it all seemed to work, with no halted streaming and no app disconnects.

Hoping it was now sorted, back at home I was deeply disappointed to find the problems 2. 3. 4. above persisted. These problems occurred whether Mu-so was connected via Ethernet cable or Wi-Fi.

I assumed now it must be a problem with my home network so I therefore decided to try it on two other completely different home networks located at completely different physical locations. However, to my dismay, the results were broadly similar.

After the firmware upgrade, the Mu-so would not stream directly from Tidal at any quality setting. In fact the problem had become worse since the upgrade. The sound stopped exactly half way through any and every track I tried. And I literally mean half way in duration - to the nearest second. However, I could stream from my Tidal account to the Tidal native app on my iPad, and use AirPlay to the mu-so and it worked fine. (I could even stream from Tidal over a 3G internet connection to my iPhone and iPad any AirPlay to the Mu-so and it worked reliably.)

Internet radio would stream to the Mu-so for quite lengthy periods but would eventually fail, sometimes with the app disconnect, sometimes also with a Mu-so hang. (I have two other internet radio capable devices on my home network, a Pure Evoke Flow and a Marantz M-CR611 and these can both play internet radio streams on my home network without problems.)

The network environments on which the Mu-so failed were as follows:

First network (my home network): Router: Billion BiPac 7800N, ISP: Zen Internet ADSL over copper wires. This typically performs at > 17Mbps download.

Second network: Router: BT hub. ISP: BT ADSL over copper wires.

Third network: Router: Virgin Superhub 3. ISP: Virgin high speed fibre optic cable broadband.

These networks all have single point of access and no dodgy range extenders or Ethernet over mains devices. Wireless tests were conducted with the Mu-so within a few feet of the router.

I phoned my dealer and reported the ongoing problems and asked how I should proceed. After some iteration, they told me to phone Naim's Mu-so helpline which I did. After two separate calls, involving lengthy waits on hold and over two hours on the phone with two separate Naim support engineers, during which I was taken through what seemed just about every conceivable combination of reboot, re-install and reset, and was interrogated about my network and internet connection, they eventually conceded the Mu-so must be faulty, and that I should return it to my dealer and exchange for a replacement unit. When I phoned my dealer with this news, again there was some iteration, and the story was there was no new stock available and I would have to wait for new stock to come into the country. Then, to my consternation. I was advised that, as my Mu-so was an ex-demo machine, it was not covered by a manufacturer's warranty at all and Naim would not replace it. Apparently Naim would take my machine back for repair, but only if the faults reported could be reproduced in the dealer's premises. So I was off again to my dealer and the Mu-so was set up on the dealer's network. Lo and behold, it appeared to work perfectly, both with a wired and wireless internet connection.

The only choice presented to me by my dealer at this point was to return the machine and accept a refund of the purchase price. Very reluctantly, as I really wanted the Mu-so to work, I accepted this.

I have to say I have been totally dismayed by this experience with the Mu-so. To find that it works on only one of the four networks I tried in on (and that one just happens to be the dealer's) is extremely dispiriting. As was Naim's seeming reluctance finally to accept responsibility for getting a customer up and running. As a result, my confidence in the Naim brand has taken a severe knock.

I am wondering if my experience is unique. Did I get a faulty unit? Or can a streaming device from a high quality brand like Naim really be so sensitive to network environment, when my other, far cheaper devices, seem quite happy to stream consistently and reliably from the same sources?

I'd be interested in the thoughts and views of those experienced in these matters (though please be gentle as I'm no technical expert in these matters).

Posted on: 31 January 2017 by robhiston

SHEFFIELD GRAHAM wrote "I would have thought an order placed by e-mail would have sorted that out."

That did in fact occur to me when the dealer told me this. However, as I reported above, I had a rare slot of free time, and time was of the essence, so I didn't pursue this.

Perhaps a hasty and poor judgement on my part.

(Aside: How on earth do you quote posts on this forum?)

Posted on: 31 January 2017 by Finkfan

Click on take action. Then reply with quote

Posted on: 31 January 2017 by sheffieldgraham

Hungryhalibut posted:
Interestingly, I've just looked up the mu-so guarantee as I have a Qb. It is indeed only guaranteed for two years, not five like other Naim stuff. I also see that Naim do not offer a repair service after the two years. So I guess that if it conks out in its third year or later, it's off to the recycling centre with it. Given that it has no moving parts you'd hope that if it lasts two years it will keep on going.

If it can be repaired within the 2 years, why not beyond. I hope this isn't a sign of things to come with NAIM gear.

If so worse than Apple Co. for planned obsolescence.

Posted on: 31 January 2017 by hungryhalibut

Perhaps it's not repaired within the two years either, given that it ships from China. It may well just be recycled. Perhaps we should look at Salisbury's HWRC in the electrical items bin, though as it's trade waste it may go elsewhere.

Posted on: 31 January 2017 by james n

sheffieldgraham posted:
Hungryhalibut posted:
Interestingly, I've just looked up the mu-so guarantee as I have a Qb. It is indeed only guaranteed for two years, not five like other Naim stuff. I also see that Naim do not offer a repair service after the two years. So I guess that if it conks out in its third year or later, it's off to the recycling centre with it. Given that it has no moving parts you'd hope that if it lasts two years it will keep on going.
If it can be repaired within the 2 years, why not beyond. I hope this isn't a sign of things to come with NAIM gear.
If so worse than Apple Co. for planned obsolescence.

It's not really 'proper' Naim though and certainly not a long term investment like the other kit. 2 year guarantee for this sort of item seems pretty good and i'm sure it'll last much longer than that.

Posted on: 31 January 2017 by robhiston

Finkfan posted:
Click on take action. Then reply with quote

Thanks!

(I had rather assumed clicking on "Take Action" would send in the moderators armed with baseball bats.)

Posted on: 31 January 2017 by Finkfan

I think that is an option!

Posted on: 31 January 2017 by sheffieldgraham

james n posted:
sheffieldgraham posted:
Hungryhalibut posted:
Interestingly, I've just looked up the mu-so guarantee as I have a Qb. It is indeed only guaranteed for two years, not five like other Naim stuff. I also see that Naim do not offer a repair service after the two years. So I guess that if it conks out in its third year or later, it's off to the recycling centre with it. Given that it has no moving parts you'd hope that if it lasts two years it will keep on going.
If it can be repaired within the 2 years, why not beyond. I hope this isn't a sign of things to come with NAIM gear.
If so worse than Apple Co. for planned obsolescence.
It's not really 'proper' Naim though and certainly not a long term investment like the other kit. 2 year guarantee for this sort of item seems pretty good and i'm sure it'll last much longer than that.

Best read the OP.

Posted on: 31 January 2017 by james n

sheffieldgraham posted:
james n posted:
sheffieldgraham posted:
Hungryhalibut posted:
Interestingly, I've just looked up the mu-so guarantee as I have a Qb. It is indeed only guaranteed for two years, not five like other Naim stuff. I also see that Naim do not offer a repair service after the two years. So I guess that if it conks out in its third year or later, it's off to the recycling centre with it. Given that it has no moving parts you'd hope that if it lasts two years it will keep on going.
If it can be repaired within the 2 years, why not beyond. I hope this isn't a sign of things to come with NAIM gear.
If so worse than Apple Co. for planned obsolescence.
It's not really 'proper' Naim though and certainly not a long term investment like the other kit. 2 year guarantee for this sort of item seems pretty good and i'm sure it'll last much longer than that.
Best read the OP.

Hmm - They really should have left this end of the market to Sonos.

Posted on: 31 January 2017 by DrMark

There are getting to be too many similar posts on the forum like this. It seems to be a recurring theme and I hope Naim is able to sort it out - all these people can't be wrong, and it seems that the software end of streaming and remoting is an Achilles heel.

Posted on: 01 February 2017 by james n

That's the problem Mark - at this end of the market it really should just work - you shouldn't need optimised networks etc. Now i know the Naim Muso and QB are a step up on SQ over the Sonos kit but if they are a pain to get working properly then the enjoyment soon goes. If i was buying an Naim NDX then i'd expect to put a bit of work in to ensure all was well, but a QB / Muso should just be plonk it down and go.

I do hope Naim get this nailed - for many it will be the first introduction to the brand and hopefully a good experience here will lead on to exploring further up the range.

Posted on: 01 February 2017 by Richard Dane

Well, to be fair to Naim, one swallow does not make a summer. Or even two swallows...

My own recent experience with a Mu-So Qb thus far has been very positive. As most on here know, I'm no IT expert and am on much safer ground setting up a turntable or cartridge. I have been taking the Mu-So round to friends who have not got any sort of optimised network, just your bog standard BT router sort of thing. Only issue I had was early on - I hadn't reset the device on the back since moving it from one setup to the next. A call to Naim support was answered very quickly and I was clearly talked through the steps to hard-wire pair it to my i-device to get it up and running (and no, I don't have a special red phone hotline through to the factory - I'm just like any one of you in how my call is handled). I now know to do a reset when moving the unit from one network to another. I have to admit, I was really impressed with the support call as my experience of support for other products and services is one of sheer dread - long waits on hold, dropped calls, poor lines etc.. and that's just for the ones where the call gets answered.

Posted on: 01 February 2017 by hungryhalibut

My Qb, which I bought on the day of release has, like Richard's, been faultless. Its best feature for us is the multiroom, which we use a lot, and it's really simple. You couldn't synchronise a Sonos with a main system.

That's the thing with the internet sometimes - you get the three unhappy customers and not the three thousand happy ones. Which doesn't remove the hassle that those three experience of course, but it does put things in perspective.

Posted on: 01 February 2017 by robhiston

Richard Dane posted:
Well, to be fair to Naim, one swallow does not make a summer. Or even two swallows...
My own recent experience with a Mu-So Qb thus far has been very positive. As most on here know, I'm no IT expert and am on much safer ground setting up a turntable or cartridge. I have been taking the Mu-So round to friends who have not got any sort of optimised network, just your bog standard BT router sort of thing. Only issue I had was early on - I hadn't reset the device on the back since moving it from one setup to the next. A call to Naim support was answered very quickly and I was clearly talked through the steps to hard-wire pair it to my i-device to get it up and running (and no, I don't have a special red phone hotline through to the factory - I'm just like any one of you in how my call is handled). I now know to do a reset when moving the unit from one network to another. I have to admit, I was really impressed with the support call as my experience of support for other products and services is one of sheer dread - long waits on hold, dropped calls, poor lines etc.. and that's just for the ones where the call gets answered.

I learned the reset thing on day one, having received an ex-demo machine. The Mu-so manual says:

Note: If your Mu-so has been previously used it is good practice [my italics] to return it to its default settings before attempting to connect it to your network.

I would say good practice should be replaced by essential. And this should be in one of those black boxes prefixed by Important: - like the one that tells you not to stand your coffee cup on the Mu-so.

Incidentally - what sources have you used? No problems with any of them? On any network you have used it on?

Posted on: 01 February 2017 by Richard Dane

Rob, I've used all bar online streaming services - many because I can't use them here because the internet is too prone to drop outs under certain weather conditions. That's a BT issue - one they're in no great desire to fix - so not the fault of the Mu-So. So, that's streaming via local music store and Asset (ok thanks to installing an Airport Extreme so I don;t have to rely on the BT router wifi), Airplay, i-Radio (a bit patchy at home thanks to rubbish internet), Bluetooth, wired iPod and good old wired analogue in from a Pono.

I have the latest version of the App installed on a recent (and kept up to date) iPad mini.

Posted on: 01 February 2017 by Camlan

Rob

I have had a Muso in the bedroom virtually since they were released as, if you already have a Naim streamer set up and have already ripped all your music, it is an absolute no brainer.

No problems whatsoever have been experienced, apart from when I have streamed 24/192 in error and couldn't figure why it was buffering!

I can only assume that, notwithstanding it apparently working at the Dealers, the Muso you had was faulty in some way. Indeed the more sensible course of action in my view would have been to test an alternative Muso in your home and see if that worked properly.

At the end of the day and acknowledging the frustration you have experienced, particularly in respect of some of the advice you have received, you appear not to have come out of this any worse off financially and I am sure a lot of other Naim owners would share my recommendation to give it another go. It really is worth it in the end.

Posted on: 01 February 2017 by robhiston

Richard Dane posted:
Rob, I've used all bar online streaming services - many because I can't use them here because the internet is too prone to drop outs under certain weather conditions. That's a BT issue - one they're in no great desire to fix - so not the fault of the Mu-So. So, that's streaming via local music store and Asset (ok thanks to installing an Airport Extreme so I don;t have to rely on the BT router wifi), Airplay, i-Radio (a bit patchy at home thanks to rubbish internet), Bluetooth, wired iPod and good old wired analogue in from a Pono.
I have the latest version of the App installed on a recent (and kept up to date) iPad mini.

I'm always depressed to hear the kind of thing highlighted above. This may be a crass question, but have you tried switching ISP? I had a truly awful experience when a previously very reliable ISP was taken over by a voracious competitor. The quality of service dropped off a cliff very quickly until I could no longer stream internet radio in the evenings at all. The ISP refused to take responsibility, and blamed everybody and everything else, including BT Openreach, my internal network wiring, interference from my fridge, and even the weather! I wasted far too much time wrestling with them, until I changed ISP to a highly rated provider, and my broadband connection has been reliable and rock steady ever since. The problems were all to do with the quality of the ISP's infrastructure, and nothing to do with the copper wires, the weather, or equipment in my home.

So you don't really stream to the Mu-so from sources over the WAN at all?

Posted on: 01 February 2017 by Richard Dane

Rob, unfortunately a change in ISP would make no difference. It's an infrastructure problem (most likely corrosion on the junction box terminals between here and the exchange) that has been identified and confirmed by two engineers. If I complain hard enough and have the patience to spend days on hold, an engineer is sent out to clean up the terminals and things improve markedly for a bit. Problems arise again in drying conditions after periods of wet weather as the corrosion sets in again. The line is old, rural and only feeds to us so I guess BT feel it's just not worthwhile updating it. Depressing? Yes, a bit.

I stream locally via the Airport extreme wifi and that works fine but any internet streaming, it's a lottery. It's been wet for a while so things seem to be pretty good. But at some point it'll start drying out and the phones will get noisy and the 'net will start dropping out again every few minutes...

Posted on: 01 February 2017 by Gavin B

Satellite broadband an option, Richard?

Posted on: 01 February 2017 by robhiston

Richard Dane posted:
Rob, unfortunately a change in ISP would make no difference. It's an infrastructure problem (most likely corrosion on the junction box terminals between here and the exchange) that has been identified and confirmed by two engineers. If I complain hard enough and have the patience to spend days on hold, an engineer is sent out to clean up the terminals and things improve markedly for a bit. Problems arise again in drying conditions after periods of wet weather as the corrosion sets in again. The line is old, rural and only feeds to us so I guess BT feel it's just not worthwhile updating it. Depressing? Yes, a bit.
I stream locally via the Airport extreme wifi and that works fine but any internet streaming, it's a lottery. It's been wet for a while so things seem to be pretty good. But at some point it'll start drying out and the phones will get noisy and the 'net will start dropping out again every few minutes...

Wow, that is indeed a sorry tale! Have the engineers not tried using gel in the junction boxes? I'm sure it's not rocket science to fix these kind of problems. Have you considered changing your telephone contract provider as well as ISP. A reputable provider might try to lean on BT Openreach a bit more heavily than BT Retail can be bothered to lean on their corporate bedmate on behalf of an individual retail customer.

Having taken the thread right off-topic I'd like to drag it back and ask if there are any heavy users of the iRadio and TIDAL services on the forum who are prepared to give the Mu-so a glowing reference before I put myself through the mangle again.

Posted on: 01 February 2017 by sheffieldgraham

Gavin B posted:
Satellite broadband an option, Richard?

Or a watering can. Sorry. But seriously is it such a big job to replace with a water proof junction box once and for all?

Posted on: 01 February 2017 by Richard Dane

Gavin B posted:
Satellite broadband an option, Richard?

It's a possibility, but I'm in no rush. I have so much music on digital disc, ripped to storage, on vinyl and on tape, and for all else I have FM radio. In fact, a recent accident which took out the phone lines for a week mean't I had to investigate an o2 3G/4G dongle and this actually worked really well, so that may be the answer.

Posted on: 01 February 2017 by Richard Dane

sheffieldgraham posted:
Gavin B posted:
Satellite broadband an option, Richard?
Or a watering can. Sorry. But seriously is it such a big job to replace with a water proof junction box once and for all?

Graham, my sentiments exactly...

Posted on: 01 February 2017 by sheffieldgraham

Richard Dane posted:
Gavin B posted:
Satellite broadband an option, Richard?
It's a possibility, but I'm in no rush. I have so much music on digital disc, ripped to storage, on vinyl and on tape, and for all else I have FM radio. In fact, a recent accident which took out the phone lines for a week mean't I had to investigate an o2 3G/4G dongle and this actually worked really well, so that may be the answer.

I had a similar issue when my phone line was cut by workmen. EE sent me such a device FOC to get back online until my service was restored, and compensated me for the time my line was down.

Posted on: 01 February 2017 by scrambler

This may not be relevant, but I solved my Mu-so Spotify streaming dropout and discovery problems by disabling the 802.11n protocol on my router (HH4R) and just running it on 802.11b/g, which is all that the Mu-so supports. The clue for me was that I had other devices streaming Spotify without any problems but they supported the 802.11n protocol. Slower Wi-Fi overall but still acceptable for my purposes. Since making the change I've had 100% reliability.