Source first..... I mean speakers integrates to the room first

Stover posted:

It has come to my mind that the importance of the speakers integrating to my room and to my musical preferences have been underestimated. If putting the wrong speaker design into the game (based on above mentioned), no source in the world can make up for that....in my humble opinion of course.

I find it important to mention I auditioned Kudos S20 and purchased Titan 88 in my former room in the basement. After a lot of struggling, I found the room to be acoustically hard to solve. I sold Titan`s as I was a bit disappointed with them even with NDS/555/252DR/300. Trouble to integrate the top- and bottom end.

Now, I run my setup at the loft and S20`s on loan again. Together with my current setup, they walk over everything I had in the basement or even the loft room for that sake, in the aspects that I appreciate.

My end point is that; in the right room S20 are simply great and it makes me think T88 are another story than I experienced. Kudos to Kudos and to the dealer that is so kind to me , even if I cannot guarantee this is my final speakers.

Speakers first..........................

S

 

 

...driven by...?

S600 with 252/300 did not work in my room whereas S400 250DR gels perfectly. You simply can't isolate the speakers.

G

I note your late caveat 

Yes, I would mostly agree with this.

However, you would not have got the great results with the S20s in your loft room without the superb source (and amplification for that matter) you are using to feed the S20s.

Source,  amplification, speakers, room all have to gel. That is the challenge (and interest and fun hopefully) we all face when it comes to 'improving' our systems. So, speakers first? No. Source first?. No. You could possibly argue that because you have to start somewhere, then get the source and amplification combo you think is right for you (on loan where possible) and then experiment with different speakers in your room.

One thing I definitely agree with you on is that many of us are guilty of underestimating the impact of room/speaker interaction when putting this jigsaw puzzle together.

How many times have we debated this? Synergy throughout (starting with mains) through to speaker/room.   

Easier said than done!

Regards,

Lindsay

Speakers do indeed have the single biggest influence on the character of the sound we hear, and inevitable that includes their interaction with the listening room.  As I have observed numerous times you can pick a range of speakers at any price point, even a five figure sum, and find they all sound very different from one another, proof of how far from being a neutral transducer they are. If you don't like the sound from your speakers, I don't see how you can find the music satisfying, so getting the speakers right is very important. (That is not necessarily the same as getting the best possible sounding speakers to your ears, as inevitably budget, other equipment and any future upgrade plans will all need to be taken into account.

At the same time, the amp has to be able to at least adequately control the speaker, and at least a reasonable quality of source is well worthwhile  - the great thing with digital these days is that the price point where sources start to become pretty decent is quite low in relative terms.

One thing often overlooked - but often actually quite difficult to do much about in a shared domestic setting, is treatment of the room itself, meaning that sound quality compromises almost inevitably abound.

I do think we are all "in balance" here, as well as a system should be that, and as I ended my first post.  Still, if I should range it speakers need to work in the room first. Then let the rest come and make it a whole, if I can express it that way.

IMO this forum have a bigger focus on source first in general and next; there should not end as a mullet..... so my suggestion is we put bigger importance to speaker/ room as well. At least I will and wanted to share that as well as my a bit negative experience with Kudos now have turned to very positive experience. 

S

The reality is though that few of us set an end state and budget to match and stay with the plan whether it's source first or build around the right speakers for the room.   

When we moved to this house back in 2001 I promised to upgrade the hi-fi but never thought I'd end up with anything like this. 

All good fun provided you don't let audiophilia neurosis get hold

Stover posted:

IMO this forum have a bigger focus on source first in general and next; there should not end as a mullet..... so my suggestion is we put bigger importance to speaker/ room as well. At least I will and wanted to share that as well as my a bit negative experience with Kudos now have turned to very positive experience. 

S

A discussion about sources and how they match to other components, lossless vs. lossy files (they are sources too), etc., gives people something to talk about.

If "we" want to talk about how those S20's do or don't integrate into your room . . . it's pretty much a one-sided conversation.  Unless/until you invite us all over for a listen.

Ok Bart, fine with me, your choice to anticipate to it...if I understand correctly  If I`m not wrong and I`m not in this case, I have seen several repeating topics in here less important than this.

Comment on S20 could have been left out, it was no attempt to talk about them actually, more the need to say they are not as bad as I have experienced.

Source first still applies. To me it means the speakers can be of lesser quality than the source, but they need to work in the room.

For example is my current system.  I have a Qute ($2k) with a pair of Dali Zensor 3 ($600) speakers and the system sounds great.  

Stover posted:

Ok Bart, fine with me, your choice to anticipate to it...if I understand correctly  If I`m not wrong and I`m not in this case, I have seen several repeating topics in here less important than this.

Comment on S20 could have been left out, it was no attempt to talk about them actually, more the need to say they are not as bad as I have experienced.

I was trying to be...what do the Brits call it ....cheeky.

But seriously, I KNOW that my room condition is the single biggest negative, by far, to my current "main" system.  Hard wood floors, wooden furniture, a leather couch, wooden blinds over the window.  Ceramic art on the wall.  I have nothing to absorb sound and it just bounces around.  If we put down a rug on the floor, the dog claims it as his own  He is 10 -- too late to teach him differently  

Stover, I see where you’re coming from , but it’s a bit of a chicken and egg situation. How do you select speakers for the room  “first” without the requisite equipment to drive them. One thing I would say, the type of speaker design selected can be driven by the room available. e.g. I think closed/infinite baffle speakers have a better chance of integrating with a small room than ported ones.

No chicken or egg to me, really. It must all be there, speakers/ room, source and balance, but to me the first element has become much more (most) important. How to get there, I don't say you have to buy speakers first. It will be a prosess going forth and back, forth and back, until pleased.  The heading may mislead my intension.

Bart, if you have that kind of room, as I guess most of us have in some way, it must be taken into consideration when matching speakers, ain't that so?

I'm actually rather envious of people who find cheap speakers satisfying - lucky you, to everyone to whom that may apply!

Whilst I can't say categorically there are no cheap speakers that I would like  - I clearly haven't heard tham all, or even any significant proportion, and never will - but I do know that of the speakers I have heard there are far more that I don't like than do, even at fairly elevated prices, and there are compromises/limitations that I simply won't accept, such as curtailing the low bass or trying to convince me that harmonics are a substitute for fundamentals.

But the room effect is another matter entirely, and one that will often be a compromise in real world situations - it must be great to have a room purpose-built! The reality is that the vast majority of us probably accept the best we can get from our rooms, with no more than playing with postioning to get them sounding as best we can, and possibly a modicum of targeted treatment. That is where the speaker challenge gets greater, to find a speaker whose character you like that works in your room ... and in the next if you move home and don't want to start all over again!

Yes, there is no "first."  We hear no sound until we have source, amp, speaker, rack, cables.  For a given investment, we attemp to balance these parts for the best sound.  

I assume the term "source first" arose during the days (maybe the 70's) when excessive emphasis was placed on the speakers.  I still have friends who like to stop by to "hear my speakers."

Charlie

Stover posted:

It has come to my mind that the importance of the speakers integrating to my room and to my musical preferences have been underestimated. If putting the wrong speaker design into the game (based on above mentioned), no source in the world can make up for that....in my humble opinion of course.

I find it important to mention I auditioned Kudos S20 and purchased Titan 88 in my former room in the basement. After a lot of struggling, I found the room to be acoustically hard to solve. I sold Titan`s as I was a bit disappointed with them even with NDS/555/252DR/300. Trouble to integrate the top- and bottom end.

Now, I run my setup at the loft and S20`s on loan again. Together with my current setup, they walk over everything I had in the basement or even the loft room for that sake, in the aspects that I appreciate.

My end point is that; in the right room S20 are simply great and it makes me think T88 are another story than I experienced. Kudos to Kudos and to the dealer that is so kind to me , even if I cannot guarantee this is my final speakers.

Speakers first. That said, I still recommend quality upstream and to avoid "mullets" etc.

S

 

 

By George, I think you've  nailed it! 

In my experience over the last 40 years, I agree some speakers just need more head Room! 

When designing a Speaker, I believe the manufactures has incorporated this into the design. 

Now, the Titans 808, or what ever, might be there top of the line Speakers, But that doesn't mean it will perform best in a Smaller Room.

Perhaps this is why Kudos, has introduced it's new 707's. 

Curious to hear what they sound like.

Enjoy your Music, The Why.

Allante93! 

Bart posted:

Stover posted:

Ok Bart, fine with me, your choice to anticipate to it...if I understand correctly  If I`m not wrong and I`m not in this case, I have seen several repeating topics in here less important than this.

Comment on S20 could have been left out, it was no attempt to talk about them actually, more the need to say they are not as bad as I have experienced.

I was trying to be...what do the Brits call it ....cheeky.

But seriously, I KNOW that my room condition is the single biggest negative, by far, to my current "main" system.  Hard wood floors, wooden furniture, a leather couch, wooden blinds over the window.  Ceramic art on the wall.  I have nothing to absorb sound and it just bounces around.  If we put down a rug on the floor, the dog claims it as his own  He is 10 -- too late to teach him differently  

 

As long as he does not remove it what is the problem. My current dog a GSD sometimes get in the way of my remote. Small problem since she still has all 4 legs.

Claus  

Before the average audiophile even considers looking at Hi-Fi in the shop window or online magazine, they have to look at what they've got to put it in.    Want quality musical reproduction, but not sure about the logistics of it ? get a quality headphone system.

past a certain age and settled down in a comfy pile is perfect. Spare non square medium sized room even more perfect. And to consider the floor, wether suspended or concrete, then the walls wether solid or not so solid. Height of ceiling.  Alcoves that can suck out.  Position of exit doors that can negatively obstruct or positively act as a bass helmholtz resonator. Really surprised that anyone can make a nice noise from anything.

Source first is still very important,but the most discernible change,for most, is the speakers and how they interact in a given room. Most of us do not have unlimited funds and/or a room that can be optimized for acoustics over all else (visual and use and waf). Easier to change speakers than a room. That said, I think we were (for the most part) sold a bill of goods,when tone controls were completely removed. Yes they may cause some degradation,but judiciously used,they can "correct" some of the deficiencies that most have between the speakers and how they interact in most (normal) rooms.

Dear moderator. Please move this thread into the category:

...... A thread started in sheer joy and happiness over finding out how much impact speaker/ room interaction have on the total result within a system and the relief of hopefully see the end of the hi-fi neurosis, speaker search, making all his music sound great, but on the other hand, subject text and some argumentations could have been done better and hopefully generated less irritation or sarcasm and hopefully made the thread more meaningful    

Enjoy

Stover posted:

Dear moderator. Please move this thread into the category:

...... A thread started in sheer joy and happiness over finding out how much impact speaker/ room interaction have on the total result within a system and the relief of hopefully see the end of the hi-fi neurosis, speaker search, making all his music sound great, but on the other hand, subject text and some argumentations could have been done better and hopefully generated less irritation or sarcasm and hopefully made the thread more meaningful    

Enjoy

 

Is that a serious request, or a joke? Pity if serious as this is quite an interesting thread, which might develop even more so...

Stover posted:

It has come to my mind that the importance of the speakers integrating to my room and to my musical preferences have been underestimated. If putting the wrong speaker design into the game (based on above mentioned), no source in the world can make up for that....in my humble opinion of course.

I find it important to mention I auditioned Kudos S20 and purchased Titan 88 in my former room in the basement. After a lot of struggling, I found the room to be acoustically hard to solve. I sold Titan`s as I was a bit disappointed with them even with NDS/555/252DR/300. Trouble to integrate the top- and bottom end.

Now, I run my setup at the loft and S20`s on loan again. Together with my current setup, they walk over everything I had in the basement or even the loft room for that sake, in the aspects that I appreciate.

My end point is that; in the right room S20 are simply great and it makes me think T88 are another story than I experienced. Kudos to Kudos and to the dealer that is so kind to me , even if I cannot guarantee this is my final speakers.

Speakers first. That said, I still recommend quality upstream and to avoid "mullets" etc.

S

 

 

I am 100% in agreement with this. Speaker choice and placement has to be sorted first before almost everything else.

Stover posted:

Dear moderator. Please move this thread into the category:

...... A thread started in sheer joy and happiness over finding out how much impact speaker/ room interaction have on the total result within a system and the relief of hopefully see the end of the hi-fi neurosis, speaker search, making all his music sound great, but on the other hand, subject text and some argumentations could have been done better and hopefully generated less irritation or sarcasm and hopefully made the thread more meaningful    

Enjoy

 

I really don't understand your irritation, if that is what it is. Almost all the replies I have read appear thoughtful and add something to the debate.

What's the problem?

engjoo posted:

Stover posted:

It has come to my mind that the importance of the speakers integrating to my room and to my musical preferences have been underestimated. If putting the wrong speaker design into the game (based on above mentioned), no source in the world can make up for that....in my humble opinion of course.

I find it important to mention I auditioned Kudos S20 and purchased Titan 88 in my former room in the basement. After a lot of struggling, I found the room to be acoustically hard to solve. I sold Titan`s as I was a bit disappointed with them even with NDS/555/252DR/300. Trouble to integrate the top- and bottom end.

Now, I run my setup at the loft and S20`s on loan again. Together with my current setup, they walk over everything I had in the basement or even the loft room for that sake, in the aspects that I appreciate.

My end point is that; in the right room S20 are simply great and it makes me think T88 are another story than I experienced. Kudos to Kudos and to the dealer that is so kind to me , even if I cannot guarantee this is my final speakers.

Speakers first. That said, I still recommend quality upstream and to avoid "mullets" etc.

S

 

 

I am 100% in agreement with this. Speaker choice and placement has to be sorted first before almost everything else.

I respectfully ask, how can you sort speaker choice and placement without any sound to listen to i.e. a source and some amplification?

Disclaimer: No irritation or sarcasm intended in this reply.

Claus-Thoegersen posted:

Bart posted:

Stover posted:

Ok Bart, fine with me, your choice to anticipate to it...if I understand correctly  If I`m not wrong and I`m not in this case, I have seen several repeating topics in here less important than this.

Comment on S20 could have been left out, it was no attempt to talk about them actually, more the need to say they are not as bad as I have experienced.

I was trying to be...what do the Brits call it ....cheeky.

But seriously, I KNOW that my room condition is the single biggest negative, by far, to my current "main" system.  Hard wood floors, wooden furniture, a leather couch, wooden blinds over the window.  Ceramic art on the wall.  I have nothing to absorb sound and it just bounces around.  If we put down a rug on the floor, the dog claims it as his own  He is 10 -- too late to teach him differently  

 

As long as he does not remove it what is the problem. My current dog a GSD sometimes get in the way of my remote. Small problem since she still has all 4 legs.

Claus  

This dog will pee on a rug in the livingroom  He's a charmer...except when he's not.  If he pees on a little bathroom rug we can put that in the wash.  But not a nice living room rug.

My shopping experience was to first decide on a brand / house sound of hardware.  I selected Naim.  Then I went right to speakers.  My salesman liked Devore, and I listened to a few brands / sounds and decided on Devore.  At that stage I was doing all of my listening with Naim -- some with a Nait XS (which I ended up buying) and some with a SN1.  Once I had Naim in mind, and my speakers, I bought the integrated, the Naim Dac (which I did hear at the dealer) and the UnitiServe (sight-unseen).  It all worked so I guess I did OK.  

Then the upgrades started over the next 3 years, but always sticking with Naim (until I sold off the UServe that is).