Source first..... I mean speakers integrates to the room first

nigelb posted:

engjoo posted:

Stover posted:

It has come to my mind that the importance of the speakers integrating to my room and to my musical preferences have been underestimated. If putting the wrong speaker design into the game (based on above mentioned), no source in the world can make up for that....in my humble opinion of course.

I find it important to mention I auditioned Kudos S20 and purchased Titan 88 in my former room in the basement. After a lot of struggling, I found the room to be acoustically hard to solve. I sold Titan`s as I was a bit disappointed with them even with NDS/555/252DR/300. Trouble to integrate the top- and bottom end.

Now, I run my setup at the loft and S20`s on loan again. Together with my current setup, they walk over everything I had in the basement or even the loft room for that sake, in the aspects that I appreciate.

My end point is that; in the right room S20 are simply great and it makes me think T88 are another story than I experienced. Kudos to Kudos and to the dealer that is so kind to me , even if I cannot guarantee this is my final speakers.

Speakers first. That said, I still recommend quality upstream and to avoid "mullets" etc.

S

 

 

I am 100% in agreement with this. Speaker choice and placement has to be sorted first before almost everything else.

I respectfully ask, how can you sort speaker choice and placement without any sound to listen to i.e. a source and some amplification?

Disclaimer: No irritation or sarcasm intended in this reply.

lol... I know where you are coming from but the final presentation of sound hinges heavily on speaker and room integration. 

Of course it was a joke, trying to twist the thread into what it actually was intended to be, express a joyful experience and the eyeopener it was to me. English is my 2. language and I may read your posts  a bit different than your intensions. I appreciate all inputs so let them come.

I have had some speakers in the loft the last weeks, with the same electronics, and they really act very different. That says something IMO. 

Innocent Bystander posted:

 If you don't like the sound from your speakers, I don't see how you can find the music satisfying

I will certainly agree on this, I feel home in this description. After a while you play the music that work well in your room/ setup. When auditioning now, I play all kind of music, also those tracks avoided and I play them quite loud. In my former room I discovered I had almost stopped playing classical music caused by the same lack of speaker/ room interaction.

Brubacca posted:

Source first still applies. To me it means the speakers can be of lesser quality than the source, but they need to work in the room.

In my view, when I have heard a speaker at the level of the electronics, you won`t go back, but in general I agree. This is not about expensive speakers.

CharlieP posted:

Yes, there is no "first."  We hear no sound until we have source, amp, speaker, rack, cables.  For a given investment, we attemp to balance these parts for the best sound.  

I assume the term "source first" arose during the days (maybe the 70's) when excessive emphasis was placed on the speakers.  I still have friends who like to stop by to "hear my speakers."

Charlie

Well, in fact it`s the speakers that communicate out whats upstream (source first and balance), but also how the speakers work in the environment. I agree that the term "first" can generate some debate, but that should also include source first IMO.

Stover posted:

Brubacca posted:

Source first still applies. To me it means the speakers can be of lesser quality than the source, but they need to work in the room.

In my view, when I have heard a speaker at the level of the electronics, you won`t go back, but in general I agree. This is not about expensive speakers.

I am not saying that this is not true. It just seems to be the Naim philosophy to short the speakers if you have to short something. In my case I'm sure I love a pair of $2k speakers for my system if I had the money for them. 

Brubacca posted:

Stover posted:

Brubacca posted:

Source first still applies. To me it means the speakers can be of lesser quality than the source, but they need to work in the room.

In my view, when I have heard a speaker at the level of the electronics, you won`t go back, but in general I agree. This is not about expensive speakers.

I am not saying that this is not true. It just seems to be the Naim philosophy to short the speakers if you have to short something. In my case I'm sure I love a pair of $2k speakers for my system if I had the money for them. 

That might be Naim philosophy, and it may work for some people, but it certainly isn't the philosophy or preference of everyone on these forums.

And as speakers tend, in my experience, to cost more than does an equivalent level of quality of source, at least with digital, the amount of value I would assign to speakers if I was determining arbitrarily what sort of value might be appropriate to spend on each part would likely be considerably more than source - although  buying speakers secondhand opens the door to better speakers than would otherwise be affordable...

Alba1320 posted:

Good grief! This, again?

Yes, finally I have solved this issue 

This is why Charles Ives composed 'The Unanswered Question' between selling insurances ...

I agree with the OP.. speakers are the most important to first get right, then the amplification (pre/power). I truly believe if you master these two, then you can enjoy various different sources for what they are and enjoy the differences between them and how they suit different media/music. So for me source is definitely not first... and I wish I had discovered that sooner in my pursuit of recorded music replay rather than read the 'perceived' wisdom from some on this and other web sites.

Simon

Greater amplification plays speakers with better command top to bottom. IME greater amplification will expose the source, all else being equal. A better source won't necessarily expose shortcomings in the speaker/amp synergy.

hmmm maybe there is some interpretation of source first.

maybe they said get the source right first, and then spend money on the electronics, and certainly don't blow the budget on expensive speakers, and have not much left for the source.

it is a tricky one, particularly since Naim started off being founded as an amplifier company, and made no sources at all in the early years. For that matter we have a statement amplifier, and trickle down DR amps, but only an NDS/555 and CD555, no statement source. Amplifier first?

But speakers do matter a lot, since it is the job of the speaker to turn that signal into something we can actually hear.

benjy posted:

Source first is still very important,but the most discernible change,for most, is the speakers and how they interact in a given room. Most of us do not have unlimited funds and/or a room that can be optimized for acoustics over all else (visual and use and waf). Easier to change speakers than a room. That said, I think we were (for the most part) sold a bill of goods,when tone controls were completely removed. Yes they may cause some degradation,but judiciously used,they can "correct" some of the deficiencies that most have between the speakers and how they interact in most (normal) rooms.

This post raises an interesting question. The trouble with tone controls is that they are a blunt instrument, when room problems tend to be more to do with relatively sharp peaks and troughs, long decay times and eraly reflection 'echoes'. Simply lifting or cutting the treble or bass by a selectable 0-6 or so dB per octave above or below some preset frequency can only compensate for a similar rolling decrease or increase in caused by the speaker itself or the room. And boosting to compensate, particularly at the bass end, significantly increases the likelihood of distortion and possible overload and failure due to either or both of the speaker or amp being overdriven unless practiced only at low volumes. (That triggers considerations of loudness compensation, but a subject for another thread, and it is not to say that such crude controls can't be beneficial when it is the recording that has been rolled off excessively, such as bass on a very long playing LP, or as was once common on some taping of mobile recordings.)

Far better than crude analogue tone controls can be DSP filtering in the digital domain, which lends itself to easy tailoring to actual measured in-room behaviour. However, boosting carries the same risks as mentioned above, while selective boosting and/or cutting to yield a flat frequency response at the listening position can lead to a very artificial sound because it will result in a difference in balance of direct and indirect sound than would be the case if an even output from a speaker and neutral acoustics of a room happened to give a near-flat response at that position. 

So it is generally considered best to try to get the speakers and their and the listening position as good as possible first, then if tge room is causing problems try to tame the worst room effects with absorption and scattering treatments, before considering dsp or other drastic use of tone controls.

Notwithstanding all the above, occasionally speakers can be found with built-in control of treble or bass, which for simple tailoring to overbright or dead rooms or rooms etc may make more sense than in the amplifier chain. PMC currently provide a simple switched lift and cut at both top and bottom to help match the Fact 12 to rooms. This should make such speakers easier to accommodate in a wide range of rooms - which might be particularly beneficial if you find in such a speaker a character you like, but then move home and the room causes unwanted wideband boost or cut.

Bart posted:

My shopping experience was to first decide on a brand / house sound of hardware.  I selected Naim.  Then I went right to speakers.  My salesman liked Devore, and I listened to a few brands / sounds and decided on Devore.  At that stage I was doing all of my listening with Naim -- some with a Nait XS (which I ended up buying) and some with a SN1.  Once I had Naim in mind, and my speakers, I bought the integrated, the Naim Dac (which I did hear at the dealer) and the UnitiServe (sight-unseen).  It all worked so I guess I did OK.  

Then the upgrades started over the next 3 years, but always sticking with Naim (until I sold off the UServe that is).

I see you kept the Nines! Me too...

I have used my SBLs in 5 different rooms in 3 different countries and I have not experienced any problems with them integrating in any of the rooms I used them in. As far as I can tell (subject to the limitations of human memory), they have performed pretty much consistently wherever I have used them.

Innocent Bystander posted:

Speakers do indeed have the single biggest influence on the character of the sound we hear

In your experience perhaps but, as I have said elsewhere on this forum, my experience is very different.

Paul Davies posted:

Innocent Bystander posted:

Speakers do indeed have the single biggest influence on the character of the sound we hear

In your experience perhaps but, as I have said elsewhere on this forum, my experience is very different.

My experience started  first time I did a major audition, when I compared all the speakers I could find amd compare in the same price bracket, 12 or 13 different speakers at what would be around the £2.5k mark in today's money. I was very surprised to find how different they all sounded - not subtly, but completely. All but three I rejected quickly as completely untenable, making music I knew sound quite unpleasant, and unlike the real thing. And that has been borne out with speakers I have heard over the intervening decades.

I note your comment on another thread about huge difference between the sound of the same speakers with different ancillary gear was rather different, in that you were comparing things of different price brackets, which brings in another variable. Regardless, though, some speakers will never produce uncurtailed low bass without dsp or tone controls, when they would suffer from distortion or spdestruction at realistic levels - however that is straying from character as character isn't the same as fullness of response.

Paul Davies posted:

I have used my SBLs in 5 different rooms in 3 different countries and I have not experienced any problems with them integrating in any of the rooms I used them in. As far as I can tell (subject to the limitations of human memory), they have performed pretty much consistently wherever I have used them.

And I have used my first IMFs in 6 different living rooms very happily, without difficulty positioning, and thoroughly enjoying using them. And my second IMFs in 3 different rooms, but struggled when I moved to the present one - which is the fault of the room not the speakers, and I ended up resorting to testing the room to find suitable placement and listening positions. My current PMCs came in quite happily in place ofthe IMFs, with only minor adjustment, and sound as good as they did where I auditioned them.

However, sounding enjoyable doesn't necessarily mean correct, as in free from room colourations, and doesn't mean can't be improved by treating early reflections, extended decay time etc. in fact my last IMFs sounded absolutely stunning the one time I played them in the open air in a garden, with no reflecting surfaces nearby and no standing waves of note. And that is what tells me it is worth attending to room treatment, which I intend to get round to some time.

Paul Davies posted:

I have used my SBLs in 5 different rooms in 3 different countries and I have not experienced any problems with them integrating in any of the rooms I used them in. As far as I can tell (subject to the limitations of human memory), they have performed pretty much consistently wherever I have used them.

Preferences is also a factor in my view, I guess you have found the speaker for you. As far as I have understood this design SBL is not very room critic? Am I right?

As you may have understood I`m looking for new speakers. I have searched this forum to see if there`s any valuable info about Kudos, Harbeth`s etc. What I find is that some agree in how a specific speaker do sound, but to a much bigger degree, as far as I read people experience speakers very different and very often as night and day. Looking at the profiles in general, most people in here use more than good sources.

Again, I find room interaction, but also personal preferences to be essential and audition only will be reliable. Many people may miss "they`re speakers" due to reading others subjective and pending experiences IMHO of course.

In my former listening room in the basement, no matter how many absorbents I putted into it, it made small differences only to the sound. In the current loft environment I have just put in some Vicoustic absorbents (have been on loan at my son`s studio) in the first reflection points and the speakers/ sound responds immediately and for the better.

Should I order et set of the speakers on loan that work very well? How Harbeth`s will sound in my room I`ll never find out if I don`t audition them. 

Stover posted:

As you may have understood I`m looking for new speakers. I have searched this forum to see if there`s any valuable info about Kudos, Harbeth`s etc. What I find is that some agree in how a specific speaker do sound, but to a much bigger degree, as far as I read people experience speakers very different and very often as night and day. Looking at the profiles in general, most people in here use more than good sources.

Again, I find room interaction, but also personal preferences to be essential and audition only will be reliable. Many people may miss "they`re speakers" due to reading others subjective and pending experiences IMHO of course.

In my former listening room in the basement, no matter how many absorbents I putted into it, it made small differences only to the sound. In the current loft environment I have just put in some Vicoustic absorbents (have been on loan at my son`s studio) in the first reflection points and the speakers/ sound responds immediately and for the better.

Should I order et set of the speakers on loan that work very well? How Harbeth`s will sound in my room I`ll never find out if I don`t audition them. 

In trying to assess what other people say about different speakers you need to try to understand what it is they want or like and dont want/don't like about music presentation. Where people contribute a lot you may start to glean something from that. Also useful is if people tend to like and dislike some of the speakers you know you like and dislike, you can get a feel for whether you are in tune with them (or the opposite to them!), and from that get some idea if you might like something they say is good (or bad).

However, in my experience speakers have a character that, whilst modified by each listening room, can often still be evident across many rooms - yes the room might modify it to make it sound a bit different, it is only in extreme cases that it would  make such a defference as to change something good into something awful. So if it is possible to do so, it is still worth listening to different possibilities at a dealer first, to pick what you like to then try at home. And if possible take your own speakers and amp to the dealer, so that you hear with the amp you expect to use, and you can use your own speakers first to judge how different they sound, and so make some allowance for the effect of the different room. Then ideally listen at home as well for confirmation.

But if auditioning first at a dealer is not possible, and they are prepared to loan to you to try at home, then yes, definitely do that. And if you find you don't like them, try to assess what it is you don't like about them - and any aspects you do like - and discuss that with the dealer (and possibly on this forum) to identify possible alternatives that might work.

A very sensible approach IB (as always), I fully agree in your comments. I may have expressed a "no value" to this forum and that`s not true, in fact one of the reasons I`m here is the quality of the content and cause it`s Naim of course. Main point was the pending on how a speaker may be described, IMO caused by preferences, room acoustics, but of course source and amp.

I got the impression that you were happy with the Kudos S20. Is that not the case?

Stover posted:

It has come to my mind that the importance of the speakers integrating to my room and to my musical ...........preferences have been underestimated. If putting the wrong speaker design into the game (based on above mentioned), no source in..........

Now, I run my setup at the loft and S20`s on loan again. Together with my current setup, they walk over everything I had in the basement or even the loft room for that sake, in the aspects that I appreciate.

My end point is that; in the right room S20 are simply great and it makes me think T88 are another story than I experienced. Kudos to Kudos and to the dealer that is so kind to me , even if I cannot guarantee this is my final speakers.

Speakers first. That said, I still recommend quality upstream and to avoid "mullets" etc.

S

 

 

I really like S20 and they may be my new house sound speakers. If so I will order another finish than black as the test object is.

In the search for new speakers I would like to sort out all possible contenders such as Harbeth`s and Proac`s or even others that may pull my trigger. I will have a listen to them next month, in the store at first.