'Professionals' Interest in HiFi

JRHardee posted:

Is it possible that his hearing is shot, and that he either doesn't know it or he doesn't want to talk about it?

 

Pardon!

Do a search on "PMC Key Clients"". There's quite a handful of musicians, recording engineers and producers who appreciate hifi, Robbie Williams being one of them though I'm not sure if it's more to marketing. Nevertheless I understand some may not have interest for whatever reasons.

jon honeyball posted:

pretty sure i remember JV telling me that Kate Bush had active SBLs. But that was a long while ago

IIRC, KB was running Linn Saras in the early 80s - Chris Thomas interviewed her for Practical HiFi around the time 'The Dreaming' was released (so yes, a long time ago!).  Not to say she hasn't owned active SBLs at some point.

A 2005 interview of Keith Jarrett to JazzTimes speaking about being a musician, a part time audiophile and his own personal sound system:

https://jazztimes.com/reviews/...s/sounds-of-jarrett/

Your neighbours may both love music but not at home. Even our top end systems don't come close to what a decent studio setup would cost, let alone the collective cost of instruments on any professional classical stage. I well remember an upgrade being installed the same day as I went to the symphony. My bubble was burst as my hifi was not even close to the sonics heard in the pre-tune up babble that came from the stage. I reminded myself that my total system probably cost way less than one violinist's bow.

Add to this that in my experience most professional musicians simply can't afford high end audio. A huge pity in my experience as this leaves them often missing dynamic details of recordings, resulting in an indifference to the reproduced sound as to the live sound they get to experience.

Conversely I have wondered for decades if some professional musicians I get to hear took the time to hear other artists performances through quality hifi then their own performances may well take on a new level of dynamics, intonation, timing and integration. Now that would be nice.   

i wonder what sort of " cables " they are using when they record and mix.... a 1000£ per metre ones or 1£ ones  

Did they every try SL full loom?  

Or are we just a strange cult with our own believes and likes, rules....

I had an interesting discussion with a BBC sound engineer once. He was happy to spend money on proper hi-fi but he would warn you that he would get very grumpy if you attempted to sell him anything other than free patch cables that come in the box because he had decided that he knew that a cable was a cable and that as a sound engineer his opinion was absolute authority and everyone else was delusional.

I've met other people in the exact same profession that would have come to blow with him. So go figure.

I have posted on another thread I started about how I found musicians had some very strange (or at least very different from the rest of us) view of what consitutes a correct sound. That was a subset of mucisian who were into hifi. The majority that I know (including my next door neighbor is a professional musician) haze zero interest. In fact it sometimes goes beyond that. Most musicians I know actually have no replay system at all at home. If they want to listen to music they have to play it themselves or go out and hear it live. Their homes are always freakishly silent. One makes do with a (very) cheap iPod dock I think. Most I know just have nothing.

The best rationale I can get to it is that they hear music different from the rest of many of us. Similar to the way some I know who work in film and television spend no money on anything more than a tiny televeision with a mono speaker. They've actually shared with me that as a creator of content, they cannot enjoy any drama or film in the way it is intended because they know too much about it and pull apart everything they see and every shot. They enjoy it greatly, but not in the same type of way that the intended audience do that benefits from an AV system to immerse them into another world. I suppose it is possible that something similar goes on with sound engineers and musicians. They enjoy it in a different way - no less valid - but maybe in a way that is fundamentally alien to some of us.

It paints too many with the same brush I know. Like I said, I know those who are really into hifi. But no mistaking that in my experience, they are in an extreme minority.

Emre posted:

i wonder what sort of " cables " they are using when they record and mix.... a 1000£ per metre ones or 1£ ones  

Did they every try SL full loom?  

Or are we just a strange cult with our own believes and likes, rules....

Moogami, Klotz, Belden are quite popular...
Plugs and sockets: mostly Neutrik and Amphenol.

feeling_zen posted:

I had an interesting discussion with a BBC sound engineer once. ............   he knew that a cable was a cable and that as a sound engineer his opinion was absolute authority and everyone else was delusional.   ....................................

The best rationale I can get to it is that they hear music different from the rest of many of us.

I have a degree of empathy with this  .............  I'm an electrical engineer & 'I know' power cables have no effect;   e.g. a 2.5 or 4mm cable carrying milliamps is madness, nothing to affect phase angles, 230v is transformed to 24,  rectified along with massive capacitors & then regulated by a 'DR' thing.   It's this regulated DC power that is the business end & will effect any possible changes in sound, not the incoming power feed.  That said I've heard differences so maybe I'm a semi-sceptic.    IC cables however are different, I can understand & I do hear influences such as capacitance, dielectric, physical construction & other factors can change and/or unbalance things.

Re how we hear music:  I learnt trumpet to a fairly high level playing in various bands & ensembles, big band, jazz, brass, classical, baroque etc.  I eventually gave up as time away working around the planet meant I was not able to practice regularly & that is not good for a brass player.  I also played guitar & have found I really do listen to a brass players differently to other music & critically listen to the techniques rather than the music,  whereas with guitar players I need to watch to be able to listen along the same critical lines.  

I was a soundie (I'd never call myself an engineer as there wasn't a formal qualification) for a number of years until tinnitus got the better of me.

I've been into hifi since before I was a teen. Always loved it, always will.

What turned me on to Naim was the "live" nature of it's sound that brought me closer to what I was used to working with PA's/live rock bands. Not the shear volume but the immediacy of the reproduction.

However I know many musos and fellow techs; none are into HiFi.... They appreciate a good rig, but don't have the passion to sink heaps of coin into a HiFi.

I understand Dave Growl and Trent Reznor have killer rigs. If you got the bucks, why not, I guess.

From the few that I know who are " professional ". One spends most of their time building modular electronic gizmos to add into a rig stack or making up stuff from kits. Then not having anywhere near the spare time to indulge in Hi-Fi which has been said they would like to do someday.  Another most of their time is spent trying to perfect aspects of playing an instrument and other times spent making and looking after children !

others who are pro Djs all seem to have a strong desire for collecting vintage kit.  Especially the pro turntables used at the BBC from the 50s like the Garrards and first technics. With vintage Brit tubed amps and big Brit monitors.

i spend my life measuring things, taking them apart, and listening to/looking at them. But thats what a test lab does, so no surprises there

As a casual (very) drummer and guitarist I am particularly attuned to the sounds and techniques used with each. Not least the way I hear the kit is experienced the other way round from that which on the system as I sit behind the kit to play, and in front to listen.

cdboy posted:

Add to this that in my experience most professional musicians simply can't afford high end audio. A huge pity in my experience as this leaves them often missing dynamic details of recordings, resulting in an indifference to the reproduced sound as to the live sound they get to experience.

This is definitely true. I can't afford my system (ie I've spent an entirely disproportionate amount on it compared to what I make), and none of the musicians I know have anything remotely close. I'd also say that those who twiddle audio knobs for a living get used to seeing replay systems in more functional terms than as a source of fulfilment.

I've participated in the mixing and mastering of most of the albums I've recorded, though it's my partner in crime who usually does the actual production work. I get involved in critiquing and revising mixes, tweaking masters and so on. And an important part of that is testing mixes on lots of different replay systems, with an emphasis on those most likely to be used in the real world. Our stuff needs to sound good on car stereos, cheap headphones, mini systems etc more than high end hifi because of the kind of music it is.

So my (comparatively amazing, albeit low key by Naim standards) system is best used for identifying specifics in a mix that just somehow doesn't quite sound where it needs to be on lesser equipment.

We both enjoy sounds themselves, not just music, but in terms of appreciating others' recordings, while I get a lot out of the sound of my system, my partner in crime gets most of what he needs from the music itself. A great song is still great on phone speakers or through the TV as far as he's usually concerned. The sound is relatively unimportant, and hifi gear is just a tool. If, for example, a system can give a good reproduction of sounds below about 50Hz, that's an interesting curiosity of that system, not a reason to spend money.

Dave***t posted:

cdboy posted:

Add to this that in my experience most professional musicians simply can't afford high end audio. A huge pity in my experience as this leaves them often missing dynamic details of recordings, resulting in an indifference to the reproduced sound as to the live sound they get to experience.

This is definitely true. I can't afford my system (ie I've spent an entirely disproportionate amount on it compared to what I make), and none of the musicians I know have anything remotely close. I'd also say that those who twiddle audio knobs for a living get used to seeing replay systems in more functional terms than as a source of fulfilment.

I've participated in the mixing and mastering of most of the albums I've recorded, though it's my partner in crime who usually does the actual production work. I get involved in critiquing and revising mixes, tweaking masters and so on. And an important part of that is testing mixes on lots of different replay systems, with an emphasis on those most likely to be used in the real world. Our stuff needs to sound good on car stereos, cheap headphones, mini systems etc more than high end hifi because of the kind of music it is.

So my (comparatively amazing, albeit low key by Naim standards) system is best used for identifying specifics in a mix that just somehow doesn't quite sound where it needs to be on lesser equipment.

We both enjoy sounds themselves, not just music, but in terms of appreciating others' recordings, while I get a lot out of the sound of my system, my partner in crime gets most of what he needs from the music itself. A great song is still great on phone speakers or through the TV as far as he's usually concerned. The sound is relatively unimportant, and hifi gear is just a tool. If, for example, a system can give a good reproduction of sounds below about 50Hz, that's an interesting curiosity of that system, not a reason to spend money.

I have noticed that the most mainstream of pop music, even discounting for dynamic range compression in mastering, is simply played in a way that avoids adding texture to the music via dynamic variance. It is nearly all about the melody.

I get exposed to a lot of JPOP where I am. Cannot stand it. The huge emphasis on sacrificing everything to pure melody drives me a bit nuts so I have to bite my tongue around the house at times. But indeed, the outcome of that is that it sounds pretty much the same whether it on an iPod dock on through my main Naim system. There just isn't a great deal else to it in terms of range, soundstage, microdetail etc. to bring out.

That said, the musicians I know here are classical or jazz musicians where there full range of nuance and aural texture are important - and they still dont care about hifi. I think you could go mad trying to figure this out. Too many exceptions in all our experiences to find a clear concencus.

All the professional musicians i know(Including the former leader of a world class symphony orchestra) have zero interest in hi-fi. When they listen they are listening to how other musicians are playing their parts and how the music is coming together as a whole entity. They can spot this through any sort of playback system.

It's a very analytical way of listening and a world away from the emotional connection most of us on here seek,

Sister xx

A real nice question which brought back many great memories. Thanks for your question.

Short version of my story:

I got a Bachelor in Music degree from the Royal Conservatory in The Hague (Netherlands). I think I can qualify for Professional Musician, however the only thing I do is attending choir rehearsals and play Sunday morning services on a certain level.

What I can say is that when you have a proper instrument (Organ is my instrument) and you push only one key - the rest of the world does not exist anymore. Playing a piece of music from Sweelinck makes the early 17th century alive. Instantly. Playing a piece of music from Buxtehude let you see the majesty of the mid-Baroque. Did I already mention playing Rameau on a good Harpsichord? When you sing in a good choir and feel that the cadense and breath is all synchronized, you feel like a racing-machine.

Being musician is being agglutinated with music. Being music. This is why people sing along on concerts.

Listening to music enables automatically an analytical process. Pace, Rhythm and Timing are very important aspects of music. Forget about intonation, melody etc. Important, but not essential. PRaT distincts in my view professional with non or semi professional. The slightest inconsistency in PRaT kills the convincement of the music.

This ultimatly brought me to Naim.

I got a job offer which brought in 20x more money than music (no joke or exaggeration). Given the fact that I have quite a family to keep alive I took it and minimized my profession in Music. I was mediocre, not brilliant in music anyhow.

Naim gives me a glimpse of the world of yesterday - either from my own life or e.g. the 19th century symphonies show something from that period. Naim was the first hifi which showed me that dynamics can be good.

The need for hifi became indeed only apparent after I made the decision to minimize music.

In a few years when I have saved enough money - I might apply for a Masters degree somewhere. Just for fun.

Imagine being inspired by, say, Dizzy Gillespie, to learn trumpet as a child. With practice and hard work you may earn a place at a music college and spend three years perfecting your technique on trumpet (and piano is often required). With hard work you attain a standard of high proficiency but you still have not even approached the brilliance of your hero. You do, though, have the ability to potentially make a satisfactory living in an orchestra or in the house orchestra for one of the many musicals that play these days.  Your passion has now become your job that pays your bills and buys you food but you may - god forbid - find yourself playing Andrew Lloyd-Weber songs 6 nights and two matinees every week. I'm sure the last thing you want to so is listen to hifi when you get home.

My experience in the record industry was also interesting - much of the listening done by the pop and rock A&R team was on systems that gave them the best indication of what the playback would sound like on domestic kit and, more importantly, FM radio.

Ardbeg10y posted:

A real nice question which brought back many great memories. Thanks for your question.

 

Short version of my story:

I got a Bachelor in Music degree from the Royal Conservatory in The Hague (Netherlands). I think I can qualify for Professional Musician, however the only thing I do is attending choir rehearsals and play Sunday morning services on a certain level.

What I can say is that when you have a proper instrument (Organ is my instrument) and you push only one key - the rest of the world does not exist anymore. Playing a piece of music from Sweelinck makes the early 17th century alive. Instantly. Playing a piece of music from Buxtehude let you see the majesty of the mid-Baroque. Did I already mention playing Rameau on a good Harpsichord? When you sing in a good choir and feel that the cadense and breath is all synchronized, you feel like a racing-machine.

Being musician is being agglutinated with music. Being music. This is why people sing along on concerts.

Listening to music enables automatically an analytical process. Pace, Rhythm and Timing are very important aspects of music. Forget about intonation, melody etc. Important, but not essential. PRaT distincts in my view professional with non or semi professional. The slightest inconsistency in PRaT kills the convincement of the music.

 

Interesting indeed.

When I pick up a musical instrument and start playing - even though not well, because I can't, I just lose myself in the music, even if that is just trying to make music. I forget time, and just live it. And the best music, live or recorded, is that which has the same effect -and that is one problem I have when trying to assess hifi equipment, as the music can simply take over. Just that for me, with recorded music the better it sounds -i.e the closer to "real" that it sounds, the more readily I get lost in it, so that perhaps is the difference between myself and some of the professionals mentioned here, in that they seem better able to ignore the limitations of the system.

interestingly, though, when I go to a concert I don't generally sing along, even when a majority might do, rather it is very occasional for me - exactly the same at home (leading to an aside: I hate it at concerts when a singer stops singing and turns the mike to the audience, encouraging the audience to sing the lines instead: I paid to see/hear the band play! Fortunately doesn't tend to happen in opera...!) Likewise I don't usually clap along even when encouraged by the band. Sometimes my toes will tap, but that depends on the piece, and possibly my mood, and sometimes I may want to play air guitar or headbang, though in practice restrict my movements to (these all identical at home, except for restriction of movement). And, from a different angle, if a concert is lacklustre I will lose concentration and start thinking of other things, and have even been known to doze off standing up in the middle of a rock gig, and sleep through whole numbers by a support band! 

I know a maestro, two soprano singers and 4 music teachers here in Portugal (two of them teach guitar, one piano and the other flute). They could not care less about hifi. The guitar teachers don't even own stereos...

I am seeing a pattern here despire my initial assumotion that we might not get one to emerge.

The number of musicians with no replay system at home or something trashy seems to outweigh those who do get hifi (and they certainly exist). But this leads to another observation which I may get slapped for forum members but I am going to say anyway. A lot of musicians live and breath playing music - that doesn't mean they actually enjoy listening to music or have any kind of broad musical taste. Again I am referring to the majority, not every single musician so no need to come back and say "you are wrong because I am a musicaian and am different."

Let's look at some evidence:

• Musicians with no replay system. And therefore no music collection
• Musicians with the most minimal of playback systems. Let's be honest, have we ever seen those musician's homes with more than a tiny shelf with a few sorry looking albums you can count with single digits?

So if you don't have a playback system and only go to hear it live or play your own, it stands to reason that the exposure to music, despite being a musician is actually somewhat limited. Certainly, when I think of those I know, out of the first 6 or so that come to mind, 5 have an extremely narrow (they would choose the word "focused" I am sure) interest in music. Then there is the 6th one who likes hifi and has a sizable collection. A few of those that sprang to mind seem to regard anything other than what they themselves play as just noise.

There does seem to be some variance by type. I couple I know, not in my top 6 that sprang to mind do electric guitar and while they have no interst in hifi they have massive music collections. But none of the pianists, woodwind, or string players do. I woder if that is just luck of the draw in those I know.

I wonder if there is also a factor of brain rest needed, for want of a better description: if someone is rehearsing/playing music for 8 hours a day, or whatever, perhaps they benefit best from time off not involving music (also as a generalisation). That Has nothing to do with appreciating good sound qualitu, but maybe not wanting to bother with it themselves, and otherwise a music replay tool that is used primarily to hear other musicians' techniques only has to be clear.

Zen, I think one thing you missed, is with musicians they also have the 1% rule.  99% love what they do, but it's hard enough to put money on the table and food in the stomach, going out and spending money on systems and music is low on the ladder.  The other 1% are changing out their cables....

Innocent Bystander posted:

I wonder if there is also a factor of brain rest needed, for want of a better description: if someone is rehearsing/playing music for 8 hours a day, or whatever, perhaps they benefit best from time off not involving music (also as a generalisation). That Has nothing to do with appreciating good sound qualitu, but maybe not wanting to bother with it themselves, and otherwise a music replay tool that is used primarily to hear other musicians' techniques only has to be clear.

I've heard of this same kind of thing happening with actors in the adult entertainment industry. After a long hard day at the office, they go home and have absolutely no interest in their spouse.

Guy007 posted:

Zen, I think one thing you missed, is with musicians they also have the 1% rule.  99% love what they do, but it's hard enough to put money on the table and food in the stomach, going out and spending money on systems and music is low on the ladder.  The other 1% are changing out their cables....

You are 100% correct. And I should have qualified that of the 6 that came to mind, none are short on cash - which I fully acknowledge is probably an exception for most musicians.