NDX and Supernait 2 - setup advice

I appreciate the advice and will try that when I get home. I did wonder why people would place the speakers against the long wall - early reflections - interesting.

Unfortunately though, if I place the speakers on the other wall, the TV will be in between them. I only have the one room - open plan. Very limited in the way it can be arranged.

As I said, I'm keen to maximize the current system... but bigger speakers are on my mind...

James, how old is the SN2? Has it had a lot of time on it? I have no experience with the NDX, however I remember SN2 having a tortuous run in (months) from new. Harsh/brash were some of the words i would use to describe how it sounded it at times. I wonder whether it may bed in and settle down a bit with the rest of the system after leaving it on running for a good few days before doing some serious listening.

Hi, I missed the question before, the "problem" was far worse with the old set up. I'm amazed at the difference. However, it's not so much fatigue, the sound is quite smooth. I'm wondering if it's just missing some lower end. 

The supernait is well run in I believe, 8 months I believe. The ndx is newer.

it may be worth saying that the 2 units have only been running a week. I'm not sure how long they will take to stabilise and warm up properly?

Some support and cable question:

* What type of support do you use for the SuperNait and the NDX? Both are top quality components and will reward with decent support racks.

* Power cables - have you plugged them directlyt into the wall or a non-filtered, star-wired distribution block? Is there a chance for a dedicated mains circuit? Naim PowerLine is a decent upgrade, but that will be a cherry on top of a well-iced cake.

* What type of speaker cables are you using? NACA5 with a minumum 3.5 meters would be a good start. Possibly TQ Black and up - again 3 meters is a recommended minimum.

* Interconnect? Perhaps my sound silly, but make sure you use DIN-DIN - it just sounds better. HiLine is a natural upgrade from the lavender. Tellurium Q and Chord also offer good upgrades.

What rack are your new boxes sitting on? (something to add to your list of 'tweaks', and something that I think becomes increasingly important as you climb the upgrade ladder.)

What is your dealer doing to help? 

I purchased an NDX and Supernait 2 combination some months ago and have them paired with my old PMC FB1 speakers via 5 metres of NACA5 cable. The system is in a 6m by 4m room with the speakers in the middle of the long wall, 2m apart, with a tv and radiator between. There's some slight toe-in with the "crossover" just behind where I sit to listen on a comfortably large sofa. ( Used to call it a settee in the dim and distant past.)

Initial impressions were slightly disappointing, compared to my previous system, 122X/150X amplifiers, Flatcap and CD5X. I guess it improved until a relay blew in the Supernait, killing one of the speaker outputs. Whilst it was away for repair under warranty it was replaced with an ancient Kenwood amplifier. The sound was a little thin, light on bass and lacking space around the instruments, voices, etc. but was interesting as a comparison. Since getting the Supernait back I've been unable to stop listening. It's beautiful as it is and I'm appreciating its worth over both the Kenwood and my former Naim system.

I've spent countless wasted hours perusing the forums, thinking about this and that. Now, I just listen to the music and spend my money on CDs and downloads. I'm in nirvana. 

If you want to improve the sound do as someone else on this forum advocated, buy a nice bottle of something, relax and luxuriate in the wonderful system you have.

Neither the SuperNait 2 nor NDX are renown for being overly forward and wearing, infact probably the opposite. I suspect this is down to speaker placement and room attenuation and possible perkiness through reflections is making quite hard work for your brain to listen hence why tiring. I really would try and experiment on positioning... I don't think bigger speakers will help.. yes they might be able to go lower and be more dynamic but they can't cure tiresome reflections or in room attenuation.

I agree with Simon,  the NDX is nothing if not detailed & neutral,  I can't speak for SN2 as I only listened a few times in dealers,  but my Supernait is much the same.  What sort of volume level (dB) are you listening at - tablets & smart phones have free apps for measuring this -  I ask because a while back I heard of a similar "tiring" complaint & it turned out the guy was listening at around 90dB or more.  (not a Naim I hasten to add)

Simon, your reply interests me. I sat in a different place last night when on the phone and noticed the room acoustics. I tried a "clap" and there is an almost metallic ringing that takes a while to die down (I've never noticed this before). This may be what I am hearing during music replay. Like I said, I like the tone of the system but something isn't quite right.

Simple vocals sound amazing, as soon as more "noise" is introduced to the track, enjoyment dips. I wonder if its the room I'm hearing. Its also worse at louder volumes.

The right wall has a sofa on it, the left wall has a TV on it, other than that they are bare (4m apart). I will try to upload a photograph tonight if I can, after tidying up obviously!

Stand: small oak coffee table (Snait on top of NDX)
Power: standard power leads into the wall
Interconnects: standard DIN
Ethernet patch cable NAS>Switch>NDX (1m+3m)
Tellerium (blue/purple colour) speaker cable (7m each side)
Target speaker stands (very heavy).

The dealer is helpful when I call but I bought from my old dealer and they're 400 miles away! He says to let the system bed-in, it's been switched on (from stone cold) a week now.

What you are hearing are uneven reverberations (reflections) off bare and hard surfaces.
There is nothing wrong with reverb as such, as long as sound emitted from each speaker resonates in a similar way.
Further - hard surfaces (bare walls, wooden floors, wooden furniture) will always produce vastly different sound reflections.

In your case you seem to be having different reflections from each speaker - sofa and TV most likely generate unique and dissimilar reverbs, due to their surface nature (soft vs hard, etc).

My strong recommendation, that will not cost anything (except for several hours of your time) is to change the speakers' position (as an experiment). Try to have them both on the same wall, firing say at a sofa. See how that changes the sound in your room.

Any other 'tweaks' to the system at this stage will probably yield frustration rather than desired results.

Good luck,

Adam

Plyfold posted:

Stand: small oak coffee table (Snait on top of NDX)

 

I hope that SN2 is not actually sitting on the NDX, but each component has a dedicated shelf.

With this level of equipment a dedicated rack / support is virtually a must.

Sticking the boxes on top of each other on a coffee table isn't ideal. They should really be on a proper rack, but at the very least, try listening with some distance between the two boxes.

I've a similar size room and use BW CM1's. Also tiny speakers. What worked best for me is to put them in my solid oak custom build shelves which are part of my french doors as well. Bass reflex ports plugged.

This gives some controled 'booming' effect, but since it is solid wood which is glued against my brick walls there is no unwanted resonance and the Amp stays in control. The effect on the sound is that my speakers have a good bass response and does not sound overly bright or harsh.

When I move my speakers in my room (on the official BW sand filled heavy stands), the treble gets more dominant and the bass response is not as good as in my shelves. For detailed listening quite nice (I do this now and then), but I don't get that back row listening experience which I also prefer. (when I sit on my sofa, I am 9+ meters from the loudspeakers).

Like you, I don't need the front row experience where I can distinct all the instruments. Just want to have the total picture and I got addicted to Dynamics. This works very, very well when the loudspeakers are against my wall. I have no stereo gap despite the almost 4 meters space between the loudspeakers.

I think my room has 'something' which makes it magic - however when I tried different floorstanding speakers the result was not even 50% as good as my current setup.

In your case, I would start to move the speakers completely to the back wall. Next, put them even behind the curtains and see how this changes the experience.

Positioning as others have mentioned before ...

Try taking the sofa out between the speakers ( if I have read your description correctly). Or try the set up with the speakers either side of the TV. A win win situation in that the telly will sound better if plugged in for movies and programs and will look better and have better chi flow - in that you only have one hot spot of interest, rather than two opposing hot spots - which could be an esoteric source of fatigue.

About the sofa: my speakers are firing into a 3 meters wide heavy sofa ... Maybe it kills all unwanted reflections ...

All interesting points, thanks for your replies. Will move the furniture when I have a spare evening and try it. The room needs to work when I have my kids over though. So there will be limitations. At least the wife can't complain (any more!).

Yes, the supernait is currently sitting on top of the ndx. Not ideal I know but I can't afford everything in one go.

i was hoping to find a solution to my current layout but perhaps a compromise is in order... I hate compromising!

Not all of us can use a dedicated listening room, or even a dedicated zone. I have a small house with a small main living room that has my Hi-Fi and TV and speakers all bundled ( although correctly fettled) within one corner firing out towards the opposite corner.  Perhaps a compromise - but after many attempts at the solution my ears have found the right voice regarding position and set up. You admit that you don't know as much as you'd like about this aspect, so a good opportunity for you to learn for yourself what works for you.  

Well in the hope that someone might have a look... I've attempted to upload images of my room. However, it would seem that my lack of understanding extends beyond stereo setup as I can't figure out how to do it lol.

Here you go...

https://forums.naimaudio.com/to...web-into-your-post-1

I had similar problems with NDX + SN2 (and HCDR) combo some time ago. I changed my Naim DAC to NDX and while everything sounded exciting and fun first, the sound became fatiguing in longer runs. I tried every tweak imaginable but couldn't get rid of this annoying trait. Then I decided to give Naim DAC another try and found out that it performed better overall. NDX is more fun and more forward sounding device but Naim DAC digs deeper into the recording with smoother yet more detailed approach. I guess you could call it more refined and more analog sound. Anyway, I hope you find a cure to your problem. Try tweaking power cables, maybe new power block or cables? I've noticed that fatiguing elements in sound has often something to do with tweaks that are related to powering the equipment. Though I'm not sure if HiCap DR is an answer here and XPS is little bit overkill at this point I think? 

Thanks Richard for the link, photobucket account created. Hopefully this has worked.

I apologise for the quality of the sketch but it gives the dimensions.

I'm happy to read up etc, I just need pointing in the right direction. Cheers.

I'd also put them either side of the TV. The sofa arms will cause horrible effects on the sound. The other thing to do is get a proper stand. The NDX and Supernait are £7,000's worth of electronics and to stack them so that that sound as bad as possible is not sensible. 

100% all that HH said.  plus do you really use the black settee ??  it would sound so much better with nothing other than only that removed

I approve the Ekornes Stressless chair,  we have two,  Mayfair Classic large frame,  the high back/headrest makes for a super listening chair.   

Agree with the above. Swop the tv and black sofa over and then make small adjustments to the 'speakers position until hopefully you find a sweet spot. Also look on the bay for some inexpensive hi fi furniture until you are ready for something better.

Nice room.

Stu

...and perhaps use the nest of tables for the tv and put your Naim side by side on the current tv unit?

Stu