TQ Black Diamond Speaker Cables on Home Dem?

Ah, but how many SL owners also own a statement? 

lyndon posted:

Yes, but the SL cables were developed for the statement range 

lyndon

 

I tested TQ Black Diamond vs SL speaker cables. Also use TQ Black Diamond DIN. Chose SL speakers for both of my systems and none of them is a Statement 

There seems to be a lack of understanding of the 'source first' principle I.e. You can only get out what you put in. (Or perhaps 'you can't make a silk purse out of a pig's ear'.) Optimise your black boxes first to provide the best possible signal for your cables to deal with. It's almost (but not quite) like putting fancy wheels and trim on a Ford Fiesta, good cars though they are, but ultimately it's still a Ford Fiesta! However if you put a V8 engine in it then you'd be bound to notice a change in performance. Ideally you'd have both the engine and the extras. 

I am not denying the importance of cables, nor of the technological advances made in recent years, but I will not be spending £4-5k on cables until I have a 552/500 in my system. 

Surely though if you underestimate the importance of the cables every box after the source isn't receiving what the source is delivering? Information will be lost between source and pre amp. More will be lost between pre amp and amp. More lost again between amp and speakers. 

lyndon posted:

Yes, but the SL cables were developed for the statement range 

lyndon

 

Isn't it the case that the SL cables were developed to allow the full majesty of the Statement amplifiers to be realised and in so doing the beneficial effects on 'lower' systems was made abundantly clear (no pun intended)?

I happened to hear the improvements wrought in a very 'umble little 300 system, at least as far as the speaker cables. The die was cast.

Source first is relevant, and we all grasp the concept.

Unfortunately many don't really grasp the importance of high end cables. 

How many forum members are not delighted with their SL cables?

Ok, we agree both source and cables are important. We differ on which is the most important.

To me the source is the fundamental determinant of what we end up hearing. I am not a mathematician but I think of it like this: say, the source reproduces 90% of what was actually recorded, and then each subsequent stage works with the same efficiency (90% each) then, if there are 2 stages after the source (interconnect and speaker cables), we ultimately end up with about 73% of the original (i.e. 0.9 x 0.9 x 0.9). However, if we have a signal from the source of lower quality, say 70%, then even with the same high quality intermediate stages of 90% efficiency, we end up with only about 44% of the original (I.e. 0.9 x 0.7 x 0.7). This is a huge difference - what is lost at the source cannot be retrieved, even with the best cables.

i am aware that this is a gross simplification of reality and, no doubt, somebody will tell me that the maths is inappropriate or just plain wrong, but I will not be persuaded that the principle is incorrect!

I understand your reasoning, even if the maths is somewhat flawed. 

I used to have a similar view to myself. 

It's my view now, after extensive demoing, that a source is only as good as the quality of your cables. 

eg, your speaker cables allows the signal from your amp to pass 'without interference' to your speakers, in order to get as close as possible to the sound that the various amp designers intended ...

So are your speaker cables doing that? allowing the signal to pass thru without interference? 

The TQ high end cables, Naim SL cables, are performing that task superbly.

The TQ in particular are better then I have ever heard.....Thus allowing your Source to perform to its optimum degree.... Not holding anything back...

I also think that a cdx2 with an XPS is exceptionally good, and so it should be for the £8k it costs....

so why not use cables that allow it to shine.......?

I'm looking forward to hearing the TQ Graphene due soon. It will be their top of the range model I believe.

G

GraemeH posted:

I'm looking forward to hearing the TQ Graphene due soon. It will be their top of the range model I believe.

G

Unfortunately, It was top of the range, but they do not produce them anymore. 

It's now the Silver Diamonds.  

wenger2015 posted:

GraemeH posted:

I'm looking forward to hearing the TQ Graphene due soon. It will be their top of the range model I believe.

G

Unfortunately, It was top of the range, but they do not produce them anymore. 

It's now the Silver Diamonds.  

Ummm...no. That was Graphite.

G

GraemeH posted:

wenger2015 posted:

GraemeH posted:

I'm looking forward to hearing the TQ Graphene due soon. It will be their top of the range model I believe.

G

Unfortunately, It was top of the range, but they do not produce them anymore. 

It's now the Silver Diamonds.  

Ummm...no. That was Graphite.

G

I have a set of TQ graphite interconnects,  they are extremely good.

As you both (Wenger and Andrewg) acknowledge the important contribution both source and cables make towards SQ, the debate is really about how one apportions expenditure between source (and other black boxes in the chain) and cables, which I eluded to in my earlier post.

There have always been very expensive cables you could spend your money on but most of these in the past have not provided VFM, particularly in the context of a Naim system. It does seem to me however in recent times some cable manufacturers have upped their game with regard to providing undoubtedly expensive cables, but cables that work well with Naim systems. Chord, TQ and of course Naim themselves with SuperLumina spring to mind. If you are prepared to do the home demos, it is possible to get a great bang for your buck with expenditure on cables.

Sources and other black boxes have also stepped up too with the advent of wonderful streamers and power supplies and amps with DR technology. Things have moved  on significantly.

The only way to assess in your own mind what the right balance of expenditure is between source (and power supplies/amplification) and cables for you in your system in your own listening environment is to.......well you know what comes next. Wenger is certainly putting in the leg work and appears to getting great results from TQ cables, although we still await the final outcome. If he concludes it is worth spending more on cables than a source (or pre amp) upgrade then that is the right answer for him. If we were only able to open our minds and try for ourselves who knows it may be the right answer for others too. Of course to conclude after home demos that spending more on a source delivers better SQ than expensive cables, this would be a perfectly understandable position.

No one can know the answer until they actually sit down and listen too 'better' boxes and cables. Expensive cables often get a bad press, mainly due to their poor image of the past, perceived poor VFM, snake oil and all that stuff. After all, what difference can a bit of over-priced wire really make? Well quite a lot in my experience, but only if you are prepared to put in the leg work and properly evaluate them. I'm afraid guessing at the maths of black box and cable contiributions to SQ is no substitute for a home demo.

wenger2015 posted:

Even Naim have 'seen the light', with their very recent SL cables.

 

 

More of a case of 'seen the dollar signs'.

I have listened extensively to high end cables and I have NEVER heard more than very subtle differences, to some those differences are worth the money, to others not so much.

I wish I could hear the differences as much as others here have expressed, but in all honesty I never could.

Cables, in the end are somewhat important, but when they are more costly, like in these examples expressed here, than a black box improvement, I can't help but feel that at some point those buyers have lost their way.

nigelb posted:

As you both (Wenger and Andrewg) acknowledge the important contribution both source and cables make towards SQ, the debate is really about how one apportions expenditure between source (and other black boxes in the chain) and cables, which I eluded to in my earlier post.

There have always been very expensive cables you could spend your money on but most of these in the past have not provided VFM, particularly in the context of a Naim system. It does seem to me however in recent times some cable manufacturers have upped their game with regard to providing undoubtedly expensive cables, but cables that work well with Naim systems. Chord, TQ and of course Naim themselves with SuperLumina spring to mind. If you are prepared to do the home demos, it is possible to get a great bang for your buck with expenditure on cables.

Sources and other black boxes have also stepped up too with the advent of wonderful streamers and power supplies and amps with DR technology. Things have moved  on significantly.

The only way to assess in your own mind what the right balance of expenditure is between source (and power supplies/amplification) and cables for you in your system in your own listening environment is to.......well you know what comes next. Wenger is certainly putting in the leg work and appears to getting great results from TQ cables, although we still await the final outcome. If he concludes it is worth spending more on cables than a source (or pre amp) upgrade then that is the right answer for him. If we were only able to open our minds and try for ourselves who knows it may be the right answer for others too. Of course to conclude after home demos that spending more on a source delivers better SQ than expensive cables, this would be a perfectly understandable position.

No one can know the answer until they actually sit down and listen too 'better' boxes and cables. Expensive cables often get a bad press, mainly due to their poor image of the past, perceived poor VFM, snake oil and all that stuff. After all, what difference can a bit of over-priced wire really make? Well quite a lot in my experience, but only if you are prepared to put in the leg work and properly evaluate them. I'm afraid guessing at the maths of black box and cable contiributions to SQ is no substitute for a home demo.

Very nicely summarised.... 

badlands posted:

wenger2015 posted:

Even Naim have 'seen the light', with their very recent SL cables.

 

 

More of a case of 'seen the dollar signs'.

I have listened extensively to high end cables and I have NEVER heard more than very subtle differences, to some those differences are worth the money, to others not so much.

I wish I could hear the differences as much as others here have expressed, but in all honesty I never could.

Cables, in the end are somewhat important, but when they are more costly, like in these examples expressed here, than a black box improvement, I can't help but feel that at some point those buyers have lost their way.

Can you get hold of TQ cables,  where you are?

TQ Silver Diamonds have arrived from dealer...will be comparing with Black Diamonds.....

The Silver Diamonds come with a TQ system enhancer disc, which apparently has to be run through system before any listening begins....

It's going to be interesting .....

Can't wait to hear those at some point over the weekend Wenger. If the Ultra silvers are anything to go by, they'll be phenomenal. I'll do a comparison between Ultra silvers and Black diamonds over the coming week. 

Cat/pigeons - my experiences suggest there is no such thing as a cable or black box which generates a faithful and truthful reproduction of the engineer's recording. Every cable and every box in the signal path, every node in your room, assigns a sound signature of some sort. It all comes down to whether you like that signature or not. My own personal pursuit is no longer, necessarily, a 'faithful' reproduction but a reproduction which 'does it' for me. Ten different folks here will atest that their set up is 'truth' optimum - yet they'll each have different system elements and different sound signatures. I've concluded that chasing the 'truth' dragon can only result in madness; finding a sound you're satisfied with is, merely, traumatic. 

Finkfan posted:

Can't wait to hear those at some point over the weekend Wenger. If the Ultra silvers are anything to go by, they'll be phenomenal. I'll do a comparison between Ultra silvers and Black diamonds over the coming week. 

Yes, I should be able to drop the Black Diamonds off tomorrow..... 

eagle3333 posted:

Cat/pigeons - my experiences suggest there is no such thing as a cable or black box which generates a faithful and truthful reproduction of the engineer's recording. Every cable and every box in the signal path, every node in your room, assigns a sound signature of some sort. It all comes down to whether you like that signature or not. My own personal pursuit is no longer, necessarily, a 'faithful' reproduction but a reproduction which 'does it' for me. Ten different folks here will atest that their set up is 'truth' optimum - yet they'll each have different system elements and different sound signatures. I've concluded that chasing the 'truth' dragon can only result in madness; finding a sound you're satisfied with is, merely, traumatic. 

Nicely summarised,  'a reproduction that does it for me'....thats exactly it really,  the only thing I would add is rather then the journey being traumatic, I prefer to describe it as fun......

Wenger - perhaps that's because you've found your happy place and still have cash in the bank, whereas I'm not quite there and almost broke from trying!

eagle3333 posted:

Wenger - perhaps that's because you've found your happy place and still have cash in the bank, whereas I'm not quite there and almost broke from trying!

You have my sympathy.........but I'm confident,that for you, it's only a matter of tweaking as opposed to large amounts of cash...

When you are back from your trip abroad, drop me an email and you can come over and listen to my set up.

Fresh Coffee is on standby.... along with four different sets of TQ speaker cables to listen to..

eagle3333 posted:

Cat/pigeons - my experiences suggest there is no such thing as a cable or black box which generates a faithful and truthful reproduction of the engineer's recording. Every cable and every box in the signal path, every node in your room, assigns a sound signature of some sort. It all comes down to whether you like that signature or not. My own personal pursuit is no longer, necessarily, a 'faithful' reproduction but a reproduction which 'does it' for me. Ten different folks here will atest that their set up is 'truth' optimum - yet they'll each have different system elements and different sound signatures. I've concluded that chasing the 'truth' dragon can only result in madness; finding a sound you're satisfied with is, merely, traumatic. 

Agree 100% !

Truth, faithfull etc. has always been total nonsense regarding audio reproduction. Like you say, every component & part of a hifi system and the entire room with everything in it, is like a giant tone-contol / equaliser which we are merely trying to tweak to our liking.

wenger2015 posted:

TQ Silver Diamonds have arrived from dealer...will be comparing with Black Diamonds.....

The Silver Diamonds come with a TQ system enhancer disc, which apparently has to be run through system before any listening begins....

It's going to be interesting .....

TQ Silver Diamonds are up and running.......these are the best in their range of speaker cables.

So what do you get for £895.00 per mt  of cable??

Well... I had been very pleased with the Ultra Black's, having had them in my system for about 18 months,

I have with Finkfans assistance, tested the Ultra Silvers, the Black Diamonds and now Silver Diamonds, .......

The Ultra Silvers, are far superior to the UB's in every area.

The Black Diamonds are exceptional,  the best I have ever heard.....

up until now..........