Supercap DR or 555PS? Which would you upgrade first?

I don't agree that 282 is a limiting factor. I'm a bit puzzled by this statement.

A 4000 GBP preamp not good enough for an NDS?

When I auditioned Chord Hugo TT vs Chord Dave this was on 172 preamp, and I could easily hear the differences between both sources, and easily hear the huge 3D soundstage rendered by the Chord Dave DAC.

Source first, always source first. And as Chag says PS555 it must be for the NDS.

Seems like the majority consensus is the 555PS. I can like with that. 

A consensus on the Forum on an upgrade path? Amazing, isn't it?  What went wrong?

Chag -

It's a sign....

Also I agree with Ali, it's ridiculous to say the 282 is a 'limiting' factor with the NDS... enjoy. The 282 will happily allow the NDS to perform well and will also support subjectively better DACs if you want in the future. The DAC is the limiting factor not that level of preamp electronics / implementation.

Simon

Drewy posted:     

Thinking a step ahead again if you do the supercap you will then be looking at a 252  at a later time. Beware of that one, I didn't like it.

Sorry guys but I just can't agree with you on this.

FYI, I have heard 552 on several occasions and it blows my mind on every occasion, so I do know what I'm missing. If you can't get to 552, which the majority on this forum can't (me included), then for me 252 is the obvious place to aspire to (most won't even be able to get to that level). I had 282 with HC, 2xHC & Supercap and it never got close to the 252 I have now. In fact I think it sounded best at HC - the addition of extra/better power supplies made it sound somewhat forced.

If you can afford/aspire to a 552 all well and good, skip the 252 and wallow in the glory of the 552. If you can't, then really listen to a 252. My initial impression of 252 was that it was very laid back and a little dull. But this is so wrong. Further listening reveals a pre that lets the subtleties, nuances and timbre of the music shine through which makes the music more real. As a side note changing from 250 to 300 gave another huge leap in performance to the 252 highlighting what a capable pre it is.

Regards.

Steve o  I agree with you, but so much is down to system balance inc speakers, setup and taste. Truth be told I have heard some surprisingly  poor  552 setups to my ears , as well as marvellous setups, so I totally get it  that some might find 252 poor in their setups. I happen to find a well setup 252 with a fresh SuperCapDR is not so far from, certainly not 'light years' away from 552DR  albeit with a different emphasis than the 552.

But this is all subjective, and undoubtedly the 552 has a greater status than the 252 and for some that is also important, and hyperbole do tend get rolled out when there is initial euphoric self justification..and again I guess that is the nature of the beast. For me it's less about status and even looks, but what sounds best for me in my environment... at the end of the day it's about, as we always say, what sounds best for you. Now I guess for those poor souls that can't easily audition, then this is where more balanced and less hyperbolic commentary would be useful.

Simon

yes but after the groove,drive and sheer fun of a 282.... not motivated to spend any more money to buy another preamp. Would rather spend money on improving sources, cables and equipment support.

One common pitfall on this forum is the cult of the amp. Additional resolution comes more from the source than the preamp to my ears. Even an entry level preamp like 172 can be paired with the best sources.

Simon-in-Suffolk posted:

Steve o  I agree with you, but so much is down to system balance inc speakers, setup and taste. Truth be told I have heard some shocking poor  552 setups to my ears , as well as marvellous setups, so I totally get it  some might find 252 poor in their setups. I happen to find a well setup 252 with a fresh SuperCapDR is not so far from, certainly not 'light years' away from 552DR  albeit with a different emphasis than the 552.

But this is all subjective, and undoubtedly the 552 has a greater status than the 252 and for some that is also important, and hyperbole do tend get rolled out when there is initial euphoric self justification..and again I guess that is the nature of the beast. For me it's less about status and even looks, but what sounds best for me in my environment... at the end of the day it's about, as we always say, what sounds best for you. Now I guess for those poor souls that can't easily audition, then this is where more balanced and less hyperbolic commentary would be useful.

Simon

 

Hi SImon yes I do agree that 252 is not very far from 552, but has a different way of presenting music. According to Richard Dane, the Burndy Preamps 252 and 552 need very careful setup.

In that way I kind of agree with you 552 is the top of the Naim preamps, but I'm not motivated to buy 552 or a 252.

I'm more enthusiastic about sources after many many years of experiments.

I'd much rather own NDS/555DR  with a 202/200/HCDR (or better - 282/200)  if that is what my funds would allow.

Ali, indeed, what I will say however it was my 252 and not my 282 that really allowed the nuance and differences from more of my sources to shine through. An example, my CDX2 I felt always sounded a bit forced and artificial with my 282.. to the point I'd didn't really bother with it, and packed it up off the rack. With the 252 the CDX2 seemed to come back to life, it had turned musical and infectious with many genres, I now listen to many CDs again. The new Sheeran Divide album sounds superb on the CDX2... So my conclusion is that I now prefer the excitement in my sources and minimum colour or emphasis but more openness from the preamp.... but I guess if you generally used  a single source, such as a Streamer, this would matter less.

analogmusic posted:

yes but after the groove,drive and sheer fun of a 282.... not motivated to spend any more money to buy another preamp. Would rather spend money on improving sources, cables and equipment support.

One common pitfall on this forum is the cult of the amp. Additional resolution comes more from the source than the preamp to my ears. Even an entry level preamp like 172 can be paired with the best sources.

True, without a good source the best preamp will fail to shine but you can go too far with the source first principle and get a "mullet", at which point the preamp will become a bottleneck. I would describe the groove, drive and sheer fun of the 282 as a lack of refinement.

As for the pitfall of this forum being the cult of the amp - well, that's a strange comment given that amps are the bedrock of Naim's reputation.

Regards.

Maybe a strange comment, but I don't hear Naim amps being a mullet to the finest sources. This was confirmed by Richard Dane, who said even Nait 5i can show the improvements of Naim sources from Cd5i all the way to CD555.

Steve O posted:

Drewy posted:     

Thinking a step ahead again if you do the supercap you will then be looking at a 252  at a later time. Beware of that one, I didn't like it.

analogmusic posted:

about 282 vs 252, after hearing 282 252 and 552, there is only place to go after 282, and that is 552. 

Sorry to those who own 252, you have no idea what you are missing out on 

Drewy again:

This is totally correct. 

My only problem with Naim is the 252, from the 282 you're faced with the 252 and in my opinion it's not good enough and I'll bet many people have moved on from Naim because of it. I've been there and I'm currently impatiently waiting on a 552.

 

Sorry guys but I just can't agree with you on this.

FYI, I have heard 552 on several occasions and it blows my mind on every occasion, so I do know what I'm missing. If you can't get to 552, which the majority on this forum can't (me included), then for me 252 is the obvious place to aspire to (most won't even be able to get to that level). I had 282 with HC, 2xHC & Supercap and it never got close to the 252 I have now. In fact I think it sounded best at HC - the addition of extra/better power supplies made it sound somewhat forced.

If you can afford/aspire to a 552 all well and good, skip the 252 and wallow in the glory of the 552. If you can't, then really listen to a 252. My initial impression of 252 was that it was very laid back and a little dull. But this is so wrong. Further listening reveals a pre that lets the subtleties, nuances and timbre of the music shine through which makes the music more real. As a side note changing from 250 to 300 gave another huge leap in performance to the 252 highlighting what a capable pre it is.

Regards.

Fair enough but my point was that my plans were to get the 252 (before hearing it) to go with my 300dr and NDS/555psdr but after having the extended home demo over Christmas I realised I couldn't live with it and it's sort of ruined my plans and pushed me to try the 552 which I didn't really want to do because of the money involved. It's an issue I'm sure many people stumble across and I'm just warning the op of the dangers.

luckily I am in a position to buy a 552 having recently paid off my mortgage and my dealer has looked after me very well but if that wasn't the case I would be sat here having a total rethink, maybe selling the NDS for a start and going backwards to a 272.

I must say the one thing the 252 does very nicely is bass. It's fantastic for that, you can really feel it. The rest of it is a bit too neutral for me.

analogmusic posted:

Maybe a strange comment, but I don't hear Naim amps being a mullet to the finest sources. This was confirmed by Richard Dane, who said even Nait 5i can show the improvements of Naim sources from Cd5i all the way to CD555.

An extreme example of a mullet system would be CD555 into Nait5i and nSats. And while the Nait5i is capable of showing the improvement in the quality of sources it is won't necessarily provide the best sound for the same outlay.

Steve O posted:

analogmusic posted:

Maybe a strange comment, but I don't hear Naim amps being a mullet to the finest sources. This was confirmed by Richard Dane, who said even Nait 5i can show the improvements of Naim sources from Cd5i all the way to CD555.

An extreme example of a mullet system would be CD555 into Nait5i and nSats. And while the Nait5i is capable of showing the improvement in the quality of sources it is won't necessarily provide the best sound for the same outlay.

Sorry to be pedantic, but the example system you cite is more of a Monkfish, rather than a Mullet. I know these fish (and haircut) analogies can be confusing and occasionally not very helpful.

For the record I err on the side of 'source first' but, with the advent of hi-res streamers, 'quality' sources can be had for less money these days, so it is not as straightforward as a simple division of funds between source, amplification and speakers. I think that 'balance' and 'synergy' are the key drivers of final SQ (but even these can be confounded by awkward and unsympathetic listening spaces). Most of us would be able to cite a 'balanced' system but synergy is a little more tricky to achieve and will often involve some trial and error. The final complication in all of this is of course our individual 'tastes' in SQ. One man's 'exciting and detailed sound' is another man's 'brash and hard rendition of music'.

BTW, I have owned 282, 252, HiCap, SupercapDR, NDX and NDS. Where you are now, I would go for the 555 (DR preferably). I say this being one of the few on here who actually preferred a SupercapDR on his 282 rather than a HiCap. But my HiCap was a non-DR and I suspect that a HiCapDR is the ideal partner for the 282. So I still say PS555DR next.

A mullet is thin on top, eg source light so the 555 nait would be the opposite. What is the name of that haircut that looks like a cow pat sat on a shaved head? It would be one of those.

I don't get the argument "even a simpler amp will show the merits of better sources", hence amps are not as important. In my experience the exact same is true for amps, any decent source will also be able to show some merits of a better amp. I would say sources first is a good starting point, but eliminating of the weakest link and finding balance is just as important. Sometimes even more so. 

Back to the original query, sc or 555 first? To be honest I don't have much of an opinion on nds with xps or 555. But for me replacing a hc with a sc on my 282 (250.2, cdx2/xps) was a revelation and one of my most obvious uppgrades. For me that brought another level of engagement with the musical performance of the music. Since then the dr technology might have closed the gap? Still I would not rule the SC option out! (and definitely not because some don't like a 252 in their system?!)