US healthcare

Posted by: MangoMonkey on 14 March 2017

Can someone make me understand what is wrong with my understanding:

In my mind - both Obama and now these new jokers are solving the wrong problem.

the real issue is the unaffordable cost of healthcare / and the price gouging that hospitals do if you don't have insurance.

I look at my bills / and they try to charge $500 - insurance pays them $200, and they take it. I remember a blood test in New Jersey. The cost without insurance was $800 insurance paid them $40. To be clear - those were the negotiated rates - so I did not have to pay anything anymore. If I did not have insurance, I would have to pay 800.

Ideally, folks should have access and afford good quality regular healthcare without needing insurance at all. You'll need catastrophic health insurance - and that's about it. And If you can't afford it - or choose not to pay - well, the same rules as car insurance apply.

whats the flaw in this logic? Open to learning from folks who know more/have thought about this more...

On the flip side - I lived in Germany for 5 years as a student - and for $100 a month had access to top healthcare. I can see the value in that - and do appreciate that. For one, I feel it is a small cost for society to pay for keeping their members healthy. You get help when you need it - and pay into the pool when you have more than you need.

Same thinking around a social safety net. However, A more cynical view - it is a small price to pay to keep peace in society. You pay people enough to get by, they won't rise up in arms over rising inequality.

Coming back to the healthcare question and the USA. A lot of the resentment and trump support seems to come from lower middle class folks who are barely making ends meet, but are not poor enough to actually get help from the govt...

Posted on: 15 March 2017 by Kevin-W

America is arguably the most technologically advanced country in the world, and one of the richest; in terms of democracy, it is at the forefront too.

Yet, as an outsider, two things puzzle me about this great nation. Why can't it do something about a) the insane proliferation of guns; and b) the parlous state of its healthcare provisions, which, from my perspective, are among the most expensive in the world and seem both grossly inefficient and desperately unfair.

Here in the UK (and elsewhere in Europe), we have tight gun control, which means that we have relatively low murder rates compared to the US. And we also started up the NHS (70 next year!), which, for all its faults and structural problems, is deeply loved and appreciated by all but the most rabid free-market neolibtards and which has been emulated around the globe.

Yet America cannot do the same. Why is this? Is a taxpayer-funded healthcare system free at the point of use regarded as dangerously "socialist" or something? It would certainly save a lot of heartbreak and expense...

Posted on: 15 March 2017 by Eloise

Kevin-W posted:
America is arguably the most technologically advanced country in the world, and one of the richest; in terms of democracy, it is at the forefront too.

Actually according to the Economist Group's "Democracy Index" the USA is below much of Europe in terms of democracy and is considered a "flawed democracy" now.

Posted on: 15 March 2017 by Kevin-W

Perhaps, Eloise, but hopefully you get the point: two simple problems that an advanced nation seems utterly incapable of solving.

Posted on: 15 March 2017 by Eloise

Yes very true...

Kevin-W posted:
Perhaps, Eloise, but hopefully you get the point: two simple problems that an advanced nation seems utterly incapable of solving.

Posted on: 15 March 2017 by Haim Ronen

Kevin-W posted:

Yet America cannot do the same. Why is this?

For the simple reason, Kevin, that all politicians here, from both sides of the aisle, are in the pockets of the lobbyists who represent the drug industry (which is not forced to negotiate prices with its largest customer, the US government), the insurance companies which are making fortunes, the hospitals that are run like for profit corporations, doctors who have a pay scale unmatched anywhere else in the world, and the lawyers who milk the system with a flood of malpractice suits. They all work together to scare the public from accepting a government run health care ('socialism', 'you loose your freedom to choose', 'all other systems are vastly inferior') and we all end up paying for it.

The gun lobby facilitates us in case we get completely desperate and want to shoot ourselves..

Posted on: 15 March 2017 by DrMark

Haim nails the force behind it, but the other irony is that if there were ANY semblance of market economics at work in the health care industry in the USA then the pricing would go down, but instead we have the "health care" industry (which is a laugh and lie on its own; health care is something you do for yourself through healthy habits, what they actually offer is "sick care"), the insurance lobbies, and the drug manufacturers all combining to make a system where the prices are sky high, necessitating the need for some form of third party pay.

The company I work for (McKesson - Fortune 5 corporation) is in "health care" - primarily wholesaling drugs, but also cancer clinics (because that is where the big rip off is taking place). Our CEO makes over $100 million a year, and just really thinks of himself as a mover and shaker in the US health care scene. (Which I guess on one sense he is.) They have a PAC, and they push the living s**t out of it at work - never have I worked anywhere with so much pressure for such a thing - and the obsequious comments by Kool-Aid drinking employees on our internal intranet about it make me want to vomit.

Obamacare is a fraud, and the bogus re-branding of it by the Republicans is at least as much a fraud. (Knock me over with a feather...)

It's the same reason education costs are out of control in this country - lobbyists get more taxpayer money funneled into their coffers for student loans, and the schools have NO incentive to rein in costs because they get theirs up front, and the student walks away with the debt. So in an effort to make "college affordable for everyone" they have in fact made it affordable for no one.

Ditto for the war industry...won't even got here. Anyone see a pattern here?

Best damn government money can buy. And the big lie is that voting for either party will change it. When will Americans wake up tot he fact that 99% of these politicians are strictly in it for themselves, and don't give a flying f*** about anyone or anything else but their own greedy pockets? They don't even work for a living - all their "job" entails is raising money, and that is pretty much all they do...they are not legislators nor public servants.

And the first (and what will be the only) time an "outsider" got elected, it had to be a moron with the self-control of a 15 year old. (With apologies to teenagers and morons everywhere...)

Posted on: 16 March 2017 by Zipperheadbanjo

According to the OEC (based on 2015 data), the United States spends about 50% per capita on Public Health Care than the next biggest spender (France). Of the thirteen "high income" countries considered in the analysis, the United States is the only country that does not provide Universal Health Care for it's citizens. So essentially the US is spending more per capita to cover only about 30-35% of the population (Medicare / Medicaid).

Not surprisingly, Private (out of pocket) per capita health care expenses in the U.S. are about 100% more than the next largest spender (Canada). I was actually surprised that it was only 100% more... would have figured it would be higher.

Americans have a shorter life expectancy, generally poorer outcomes (exception being cancer treatment), and greater prevalence of chronic conditions than other high income countries. They make fewer doctor visits, and have fewer hospital stays. They are the greatest consumers however of advanced medical diagnostic technologies (MRI etc) and pharmaceuticals. They have less access to family physicians than 10 of the 12 countries considered (2.6 physicians per 1000 population).

How any citizen of the US could not look at this data and not be persuaded that the "socialism" tag that is applied to the concept of Universal Health Care by their politicians is complete bs has always alluded me. No system is perfect... but based on the results, the American system is less perfect than most (all).

Then again... these are the same people who somehow manage to convince their population that there is no correlation between access to firearms and firearms related deaths.

Posted on: 16 March 2017 by Clay Bingham

Zipperheadbanjo

Careful what you say lest you be absorbed into the Borg!

Posted on: 16 March 2017 by MangoMonkey

With Obamacare, the way I saw it at least, the biggest beneficiaries were the insurance companies and hospitals. No reason for costs to go down / since they could be passed on to the customer.

OTOH - there were N million more people insured who now have access to healthcare.

Are we being too cynical? Baby/bathwater, nose spite? Making best of bad situation? Or peace for our time?

I don't want to say 'serves them right' for the folks who voted for trump and now will lose health coverage.

Posted on: 16 March 2017 by Zipperheadbanjo

Clay Bingham posted:
Zipperheadbanjo
Careful what you say lest you be absorbed into the Borg!

Resistance is futile :-)

I can assure you that Jean Luc would be able to get a handle on all of this.

Posted on: 20 March 2017 by Romi

Kevin-W posted:
America is arguably the most technologically advanced country in the world, and one of the richest; in terms of democracy, it is at the forefront too.
Yet, as an outsider, two things puzzle me about this great nation. Why can't it do something about a) the insane proliferation of guns; and b) the parlous state of its healthcare provisions, which, from my perspective, are among the most expensive in the world and seem both grossly inefficient and desperately unfair.
Here in the UK (and elsewhere in Europe), we have tight gun control, which means that we have relatively low murder rates compared to the US. And we also started up the NHS (70 next year!), which, for all its faults and structural problems, is deeply loved and appreciated by all but the most rabid free-market neolibtards and which has been emulated around the globe.
Yet America cannot do the same. Why is this? Is a taxpayer-funded healthcare system free at the point of use regarded as dangerously "socialist" or something? It would certainly save a lot of heartbreak and expense...

I totally agree with you about the NHS we do love it but the financing of it has started to effect the political structure of our country as witnessed in the recent 'budget fiasco'. In the long term I think some private contribution schemes from the public together with taxpayer - funded healthcare system will have to be implemented if we are to retain the NHS in its present form.

Posted on: 20 March 2017 by Eloise

Zipperheadbanjo posted:
Clay Bingham posted:
Zipperheadbanjo
Careful what you say lest you be absorbed into the Borg!
Resistance is futile :-)
I can assure you that Jean Luc would be able to get a handle on all of this.

Not really ... he got assimilated!