Mains cable.. seen the light????

Huge posted:

Richard,  One observation...

Transformer hum isn't from RFI (that's far too high a frequency to cause hum):  It's either the inherent nature of that particular transformer (all toroidal transformers hum, they just vary in loudness); or if caused by mains, it's related to asymmetric mains waveform and the resulting magnetostriction that occurs.

Thanks Huge, I stand corrected on my point re RFI being the cause of transformer hum, And yes all toroidal transformers do naturally hum, but I'm referring to the often quite loud hum or even buzzing that can be heard from Naim transformers from time to time.
To quote from Naim Owners Manual;
A hi-fi system usually shares a mains circuit with other household equipment some of which can cause distortion of the mains wave form. This distortion can in turn lead to mechanical hum from mains transformers...
Transformer hum is not transmitted through the speakers and has no effect on the performance of the system; however a separate mains circuit may reduce it. Such a circuit will also generally improve system performance...
Whilst Naim claim that transformer hum per se  does not affect system performance. The hum is a symptom and indicative that there is noise/ distorted wave form on the mains. Therefore address the issue with the mains and Such a circuit will also generally improve system performance... and in my experience it undoubtedly does.

I'm sure mains cables can make a difference. I've just purchased a couple of very well made and spec'd Mark Grant Black Series DSP 2.5 Dual Screened mains cables for a very reasonable sum for my ATC active speakers. After a quick listen I'm sure they have improved the sound, perhaps a little smoother, not yet had a really good listen.

Surely, improved shielding and wire gauge are going to help?

A lot of mains cables have differing technologies going on - a factor to bear. Cardas cable mains have a ferrite choke. VDH an earth double. Nordost have Zero hysteresis impedance. Etc Etc..

shielding and coupling has got to be down there as far as influencing factors.   In fact the simpler the shielding and coupling technology the better the results. Got to be a result of the actual wire itself. It's quality and ability to pass on the juice without turning it loose.

I'm still a great believer in simple is best when it comes to mains. Good quality plugs and keeping the number of connection points (and fuses) between mains socket and equipment to a minimum works well.  Connecting all the equipment with a Hydra 'star' type arrangement usually produces the most musically cohesive end result too. On another note, i'm really pleased with the Naim Powerlite mains plug which (until i get a dedicated feed sorted) has been the icing on the cake of my mains arrangement. 

Richard 2000 posted:

... II spent £800 on having a sympathetic electrical engineer (finding one that understands and doesn't think your barking mad is another story) install a dedicated consumer unit and radial circuits based on the article published in HFNRW. I can honestly say it iis the best sound per pound "upgrade" I have ever made...

...Compared to connecting the system to the domestic ring main, the sound before was veiled and muddled, on the dedicated supply the sound is completely opened up with space and air around iinstruments and unbelievable transparency particularly rendering vocals even when way back in a dense noisy mix easily iintelligible. The whole is just so more dynamic, lively and full of musical verve. Systen performance is also so much more consistent with for example less of the phenomenon where a HiFi system sounds better later at night...

I completely agree Richard. This is exactly my experience too and the reason I'm so fascinated by the mains feeding your systems. No other aspect of our systems can provide the same fundamental 'bang for the buck' than improving the mains imo.

I've read an article on some high-end site that argued; "It all starts with the mains, not the other way around". Stating we're essentially building our systems the wrong way around. Mains is the foundation 'the house' is build on. You're not able to hear the true & full potential of components on poor mains. Like you can't build a solid (performing) house on a poor foundation. We're inclined to try to improve our systems 'downstream' with boxes and cables while ignoring and/or underestimating the bottlenecks upstream in the mains supply, cabling, mainsblock, powercords, connectors & sockets. You can't solve issues or bottlenecks downstream that root upstream. You can only mask them at best. Interesting point of view that is pretty much inline with my own experience.

KTMax posted:

Richard 2000 posted:

... II spent £800 on having a sympathetic electrical engineer (finding one that understands and doesn't think your barking mad is another story) install a dedicated consumer unit and radial circuits based on the article published in HFNRW. I can honestly say it iis the best sound per pound "upgrade" I have ever made...

...Compared to connecting the system to the domestic ring main, the sound before was veiled and muddled, on the dedicated supply the sound is completely opened up with space and air around iinstruments and unbelievable transparency particularly rendering vocals even when way back in a dense noisy mix easily iintelligible. The whole is just so more dynamic, lively and full of musical verve. Systen performance is also so much more consistent with for example less of the phenomenon where a HiFi system sounds better later at night...

I completely agree Richard. This is exactly my experience too and the reason I'm so fascinated by the mains feeding your systems. No other aspect of our systems can provide the same fundamental 'bang for the buck' than improving the mains imo.

I've read an article on some high-end site that argued; "It all starts with the mains, not the other way around". Stating we're essentially building our systems the wrong way around. Mains is the foundation 'the house' is build on. You're not able to hear the true & full potential of components on poor mains. Like you can't build a solid (performing) house on a poor foundation. We're inclined to try to improve our systems 'downstream' with boxes and cables while ignoring and/or underestimating the bottlenecks upstream in the mains supply, cabling, mainsblock, powercords, connectors & sockets. You can't solve issues or bottlenecks downstream that root upstream. You can only mask them at best. Interesting point of view that is pretty much inline with my own experience.

Indeed KTMAX, fancy power chords, regenerators, conditioning blocks etc only address the symptom not the cause and often expensive and imo palliative devices of little worth. I also believe that some manufacturers of mains conditioning devices are fully aware of this and are misleading audiophiles with these products.
In my situation, I have over the years experimented with different approaches to connecting a HiFi system to the mains, everything from distribution blocks, dedicated spurs, dedicated ring circuits etc to the solution that I am currently happy with and explained in an earlier contribution to this thread. In all of these cases I have perhaps plagiarised the theory's of some manufacturers of mains conditioning products, who often publish very sound ideas which are intended to mislead some audiophile consumers in to believing that because said manufacturer obviously knows what their talking about that their products must therefore be worthwile when in my experience great results are achieved by using bog standard but quality electrical supplies available at any trade counter in an appropriately engineered solution.
Once done then the installation can be tweaked if one so feels the need with fancy circuit cables connectors etc, and I can see from your posts that this is an area in which you have been doing a lot of empirical self research which is fascinating and you are way ahead of me getting great results, and it appears that the electrical regs in NL are less bureaucratic allowing greater scope for experimentation and I envy you.
However, personally I think there is only so far that one really needs to go in a domestic environment, once the fundamentals are right I would much prefer to come home and play music than be sent on snake oil merry go round ripping out mains circuit cables, sockets etc working up a sweat and swearing profusely just to audition a mega bucks mains ring/ spur cable that according to the manufacturer  will be the answer to all my audio prayers, when often the effort and BS involved outweighs the diminishing return. This is where I do start to lose the will to live and just want to put a record on!

A little story you might find amusing from me early tinkering days. The first time I installed a DIY dedicated spur as an experiment I found that my hifi would only power up during certain times of the day and night and power down at other times. Scratching my head I discovered that I had inadvertently connected the spur to the Economy 7  heating circuit ( Economy 7 was a system whereby a timer switched power on to the heating only during off peak tarrifs) so not only did I get great sound I got a cheaper electrical bill! Lol !!

james n posted:

I'm still a great believer in simple is best when it comes to mains. Good quality plugs and keeping the number of connection points (and fuses) between mains socket and equipment to a minimum works well.  Connecting all the equipment with a Hydra 'star' type arrangement usually produces the most musically cohesive end result too. On another note, i'm really pleased with the Naim Powerlite mains plug which (until i get a dedicated feed sorted) has been the icing on the cake of my mains arrangement. 

I've not tried a hydra, I know a lot of Naim users like them but I wonder about multiple components being restricted by a single 13amp fuse, am I missing something?

On the other hand, if you really believe "It all starts with the mains, not the other way around", then surely a good mains re-generator should be the ultimate answer?

This way the mains supply to your equipment is almost completely isolated from external influences such as voltage variance, quality of cabling and industrial installations in your area.  If "It all starts with the mains, not the other way around" then a re-generator will be much more effective than a dedicated radial circuit.

In other words "It all starts with the mains, not the other way around" is too much of a simplification.

a well made screened mains cable that has the correct csa cable and routed away from signal cables is as good as it gets. £50 tops   .  dealers love selling cables good profit too  ,and don't take up any room either

On the other hand expensive mains cables are really great as the other half won't notice them, compared to an expensive huge mains regenerator.

Huge posted:

On the other hand, if you really believe "It all starts with the mains, not the other way around", then surely a good mains re-generator should be the ultimate answer?

This way the mains supply to your equipment is almost completely isolated from external influences such as voltage variance, quality of cabling and industrial installations in your area.  If "It all starts with the mains, not the other way around" then a re-generator will be much more effective than a dedicated radial circuit.

In other words "It all starts with the mains, not the other way around" is too much of a simplification.

Its not a simplification but a simple statement of fact. Of course it all starts with the mains, without mains power your HiFI simply does not work! How one tackles the vagaries of mains quality is another matter

Richard 2000 posted:

Huge posted:

On the other hand, if you really believe "It all starts with the mains, not the other way around", then surely a good mains re-generator should be the ultimate answer?

This way the mains supply to your equipment is almost completely isolated from external influences such as voltage variance, quality of cabling and industrial installations in your area.  If "It all starts with the mains, not the other way around" then a re-generator will be much more effective than a dedicated radial circuit.

In other words "It all starts with the mains, not the other way around" is too much of a simplification.

Its not a simplification but a simple statement of fact. Of course it all starts with the mains, without mains power your HiFI simply does not work! How one tackles the vagaries of mains quality is another matter

That I can think of at least two ways of powering my NAC-N272 & NAP300(DR) system in such a way that it will work, without any reliance on mains electricity rather militates against that being a 'fact' (whether it's extracted from a simple statement or not)!

Huge posted:

Richard 2000 posted:

Huge posted:

On the other hand, if you really believe "It all starts with the mains, not the other way around", then surely a good mains re-generator should be the ultimate answer?

This way the mains supply to your equipment is almost completely isolated from external influences such as voltage variance, quality of cabling and industrial installations in your area.  If "It all starts with the mains, not the other way around" then a re-generator will be much more effective than a dedicated radial circuit.

In other words "It all starts with the mains, not the other way around" is too much of a simplification.

Its not a simplification but a simple statement of fact. Of course it all starts with the mains, without mains power your HiFI simply does not work! How one tackles the vagaries of mains quality is another matter

That I can think of at least two ways of powering my NAC-N272 & NAP300(DR) system in such a way that it will work, without any reliance on mains electricity rather militates against that being a 'fact' (whether it's extracted from a simple statement or not)!

Sure, you could use a generator to produce your own electricity, but I think your being a little pedantic. In this context I think we all know that "mains" means the electricity source without which your hifi system is nothing more than a collection of biscuit tins. In any case generating your own supply would also likely present other challenges to overcome. So no matter how your electricity is generated its unlikely to ever be perfect and the "mains" in this context is where it all starts.

Richard 2000 posted:

Huge posted:

Richard 2000 posted:

Huge posted:

On the other hand, if you really believe "It all starts with the mains, not the other way around", then surely a good mains re-generator should be the ultimate answer?

This way the mains supply to your equipment is almost completely isolated from external influences such as voltage variance, quality of cabling and industrial installations in your area.  If "It all starts with the mains, not the other way around" then a re-generator will be much more effective than a dedicated radial circuit.

In other words "It all starts with the mains, not the other way around" is too much of a simplification.

Its not a simplification but a simple statement of fact. Of course it all starts with the mains, without mains power your HiFI simply does not work! How one tackles the vagaries of mains quality is another matter

That I can think of at least two ways of powering my NAC-N272 & NAP300(DR) system in such a way that it will work, without any reliance on mains electricity rather militates against that being a 'fact' (whether it's extracted from a simple statement or not)!

Sure, you could use a generator to produce your own electricity, but I think your being a little pedantic. In this context I think we all know that "mains" means the electricity source without which your hifi system is nothing more than a collection of biscuit tins. In any case generating your own supply would also likely present other challenges to overcome. So no matter how your electricity is generated its unlikely to ever be perfect and the "mains" in this context is where it all starts.

Precisely my point about using a good re-generator.

Thank you.

All this re-quoting makes it ever so hard to read on the phone. Maybe you should pick up the phone for a chat.

Huge posted:

Richard 2000 posted:

Huge posted:

Richard 2000 posted:

Huge posted:

On the other hand, if you really believe "It all starts with the mains, not the other way around", then surely a good mains re-generator should be the ultimate answer?

This way the mains supply to your equipment is almost completely isolated from external influences such as voltage variance, quality of cabling and industrial installations in your area.  If "It all starts with the mains, not the other way around" then a re-generator will be much more effective than a dedicated radial circuit.

In other words "It all starts with the mains, not the other way around" is too much of a simplification.

Its not a simplification but a simple statement of fact. Of course it all starts with the mains, without mains power your HiFI simply does not work! How one tackles the vagaries of mains quality is another matter

That I can think of at least two ways of powering my NAC-N272 & NAP300(DR) system in such a way that it will work, without any reliance on mains electricity rather militates against that being a 'fact' (whether it's extracted from a simple statement or not)!

Sure, you could use a generator to produce your own electricity, but I think your being a little pedantic. In this context I think we all know that "mains" means the electricity source without which your hifi system is nothing more than a collection of biscuit tins. In any case generating your own supply would also likely present other challenges to overcome. So no matter how your electricity is generated its unlikely to ever be perfect and the "mains" in this context is where it all starts.

Precisely my point about using a good re-generator.

Thank you.

Not sure that it is, I have no experience of a regenerator other than hearing one connected to a system at a HiFi show in Brighton, sorry I don't recall the exhibitor or the system. It cost a small fortune and the exhibitor was most reluctant and defensive in refusing to allow anyone to hear the system without the regenerator connected for comparison.
But surely even a regenerator is only dealing with the symptoms and not the cause?

No, a well engineered re-generator designed specifically for the purpose directly deals with the cause of the issue by providing a clean stable 230V sine wave at low impedance.

This seems to be straying into overlap with another current thread (pun intended), dedicated supply question, where I've just posted the obvious answer to all this: batteries! (No not pseudo mains via invertor, but direct battery supply to the equipment (though detailed discussion might not be possible as it could lead to breaking of forum rules).

IB,  Yes, to a fair degree a battery DC supply direct to the voltage rails has a lot of merit (cf some Chord DACs), but also a number of engineering challenges (re-generators also have more than their own fair share of challenges as well).

I don't think it breaks forum rules to discuss these things in principle; provided that it's kept 'in principle', and no modification to the power supply of any actual component (Naim or otherwise) is discussed or implied.  It may however be material for the padded cell.

Huge posted:

No, a well engineered re-generator designed specifically for the purpose directly deals with the cause of the issue by providing a clean stable 230V sine wave at low impedance.

I'm not familiar with re-generators other than the one I mentioned at a HiFi show so  Ive just done a bit of internet surfing on the subject and whilst the aim of a re-generator may be to provide clean stable 230v etc the actual performance of one regenerator I have just read a review (PS Audio HiFi pig indicates that the performance of the re-generator is still dependent on the incoming mains signal and how much correction is needed. So maybe a mains regenerator may be a good idea after other measures have been taken to address the mains such as deducted consumer unit, radials and so on. Then whether or not a regenerator is a worthwhile purchase could be properly evaluated/auditioned by any potential purchaser. Just connecting one to an already polluted mains doesn't seem very logical to me unless one really cant do anything to improve their mains supply in the first instance.

A re-generator doesn't 'correct' the mains waveform, it regenerates it.

The output of a well engineered one is largely independent of the incoming mains, when operating within its operating envelope (however, note that there are a number of less well engineered ones that don't do so good a job).  Also, there are others ones designed to just give a rough approximation of a sine wave, but at a stable voltage even when the input voltage varies wildly.  This latter type, no matter how well engineered, are inappropriate for high quality audio use.

Lastly a dedicated radial circuit will do nothing to improve the mains quality if the source of the problem is outside your house - a dedicated circuit is no panacea.  In the case of outside interference, it just better connects your audio components to the source of the interference!

Huge posted:

a dedicated circuit is no panacea.  In the case of outside interference, it just better connects your audio components to the source of the interference!

I didn't say it was! But a well installed dedicated audio supply does isolate from ring mains which are polluted by other domestic appliances, reduces RFI, lowers impedance on the incoming circuit, improves earthing etc etc all of which are beneficial and bring significant and cost effective gains in SQ No it wont cure the vagaries of fluctuating voltage and other outside interference, nobody is claiming it does. As your own comment reveals some regenerators are, as I would expect, better than others, so they are not consistent devices, and as you say that they are largely independent of the incoming mains, largely does not mean entirely and therefore to greater or lesser degrees dependant on the amount of correction the "mains" requires the end result will be to some degree be dependant upon that.
I am not disagreeing with you that re-generators may be a good thing I'm just saying that in the order of things my view is that such devices should follow after measures have been taken to deal with the mains at source (in this context source being the supply after the meter). Then whether or not a regenerator is a worthwhile investment can be properly evaluated as the end result will likely be dependant upon how much correction is then being done by the re-generator which is translating into audible improvement and of course will vary widely across different locations objectively and to different listeners subjectively.

What is your experience of re-generators, which models have you used, compared and against which sort of mains circuits, installations? I would be very interested

I used re-generators in a shipboard scientific instrumentation context, not audio.

My approach for audio was the fix the in-house problems at source - by reducing the RFI from the other domestic appliances.

However far worse were the problems of the quality of supply into the house

Unplugging / isolating everything except the audio components made very little difference, and no at all difference after RFI filtration, so adding a dedicated circuit wouldn't have made a jot of difference; whereas fitting a bandpass filter to the mains supply to the HiFi improved matters considerably.  A good, well engineered re-generator of the right type would have done likewise, but at considerably more expense.

So you have not actually used a re generator in an audio context, so I cant see how you can objectively qualify that a re-generator would without doubt improve matters considerably. Of course, subjectively you believe it would and I wouldn't be so arrogant to challenge your belief, but it is just a belief and not proven in practice.

From experience of re-generators, electronic design of audio amplifiers, and other electronic design work.