Scottish Independence

I think your third question nails it.

With the previous referendum on independence I very much hoped that the result would be 'no' as I think all parts of the United Kingdom are stronger together than apart.  So I was pleased to see the outcome, though I thought at the time that the main political parties in Westminster mounted a pretty lukewarm campaign.

Given how decisively the electorate in Scotland voted to stay in the EU, I can see the SNP's argument for seeking another referendum on independence, though I think the SNP's motivation is more self-serving.  Sturgeon is deluded though if she thinks the EU will quickly admit Scotland to the EU if Scotland voted for independence. All remaining 27 member states would need to agree to Scotland's admission and I could see, say, Spain saying no for fear of encouraging some its own regions to seek independence.

I can also understand why the PM has apparently ruled out a referendum before the Brexit negotiations are completed. That said, I read in the paper today that the PM had used the argument that it would unfair on the Scottish electorate to be asked to make such a monumental decision without knowledge of the facts - a bit rich given the EU referendum was conducted  in exactly those circumstances! Also, I suspect that the Brexit negotiations could take much longer than 2 years to complete so the PM saying 'let's wait 'till the negotiations are complete' could be a neat way of kicking the issue into the long grass.

Overall, though, I think it bad enough that we are leaving the EU.  If that act served to also break up the Union it would be a tragedy. 

Yes, I think Mrs May has very nicely kicked the idea into touch for the time being,  but no doubt Sturgeon won't let it rest.

I get the feeling it's all about her as opposed to the best interests of the Scottish electorate ..

Scottish independence would necessitate a hard border and I fear there won't be any wall builders left.

MDS posted:

I think your third question nails it.

With the previous referendum on independence I very much hoped that the result would be 'no' as I think all parts of the United Kingdom are stronger together than apart.  So I was pleased to see the outcome, though I thought at the time that the main political parties in Westminster mounted a pretty lukewarm campaign.

Given how decisively the electorate in Scotland voted to stay in the EU, I can see the SNP's argument for seeking another referendum on independence, though I think the SNP's motivation is more self-serving.  Sturgeon is deluded though if she thinks the EU will quickly admit Scotland to the EU if Scotland voted for independence. All remaining 27 member states would need to agree to Scotland's admission and I could see, say, Spain saying no for fear of encouraging some its own regions to seek independence.

I can also understand why the PM has apparently ruled out a referendum before the Brexit negotiations are completed. That said, I read in the paper today that the PM had used the argument that it would unfair on the Scottish electorate to be asked to make such a monumental decision without knowledge of the facts - a bit rich given the EU referendum was conducted  in exactly those circumstances! Also, I suspect that the Brexit negotiations could take much longer than 2 years to complete so the PM saying 'let's wait 'till the negotiations are complete' could be a neat way of kicking the issue into the long grass.

Overall, though, I think it bad enough that we are leaving the EU.  If that act served to also break up the Union it would be a tragedy. 

More or less mirrors my perception - although I think the PM said "Now is not the time" rather than "Let's wait until the negotiations are complete". To my mind, these two statements are probably political poles apart !!! even though we, the electorate might think they mean more or less the same thing.

Despite my views on the disaster of leaving the EU, I can almost come to terms with that compared to the tragedy the break up of the UK would be ! Probably no more than sentiment and the fact that I spent much of my youth visiting life-long family friends in Motherwell and back-packing in the Western Highlands. But I genuinely believe that the UK (and each of the four Nations) will be stronger together, regardless of whether we are in or out of the EU.

IMHO, Nicola Sturgeon is a one-policy politician.......the break-up of the UK. I don't know why she wants this, I doubt if anybody other than her and Alex Salmon will ever know what is driving them, but she will use any and every means to achieve it.

I have no sympathy and very little respect for Mrs May and I rather suspect she will alienate many people in Scotland and that could well be a tragedy.

Don Atkinson posted:

MDS posted:

I think your third question nails it.

With the previous referendum on independence I very much hoped that the result would be 'no' as I think all parts of the United Kingdom are stronger together than apart.  So I was pleased to see the outcome, though I thought at the time that the main political parties in Westminster mounted a pretty lukewarm campaign.

Given how decisively the electorate in Scotland voted to stay in the EU, I can see the SNP's argument for seeking another referendum on independence, though I think the SNP's motivation is more self-serving.  Sturgeon is deluded though if she thinks the EU will quickly admit Scotland to the EU if Scotland voted for independence. All remaining 27 member states would need to agree to Scotland's admission and I could see, say, Spain saying no for fear of encouraging some its own regions to seek independence.

I can also understand why the PM has apparently ruled out a referendum before the Brexit negotiations are completed. That said, I read in the paper today that the PM had used the argument that it would unfair on the Scottish electorate to be asked to make such a monumental decision without knowledge of the facts - a bit rich given the EU referendum was conducted  in exactly those circumstances! Also, I suspect that the Brexit negotiations could take much longer than 2 years to complete so the PM saying 'let's wait 'till the negotiations are complete' could be a neat way of kicking the issue into the long grass.

Overall, though, I think it bad enough that we are leaving the EU.  If that act served to also break up the Union it would be a tragedy. 

More or less mirrors my perception - although I think the PM said "Now is not the time" rather than "Let's wait until the negotiations are complete". To my mind, these two statements are probably political poles apart !!! even though we, the electorate might think they mean more or less the same thing.

Despite my views on the disaster of leaving the EU, I can almost come to terms with that compared to the tragedy the break up of the UK would be ! Probably no more than sentiment and the fact that I spent much of my youth visiting life-long family friends in Motherwell and back-packing in the Western Highlands. But I genuinely believe that the UK (and each of the four Nations) will be stronger together, regardless of whether we are in or out of the EU.

IMHO, Nicola Sturgeon is a one-policy politician.......the break-up of the UK. I don't know why she wants this, I doubt if anybody other than her and Alex Salmon will ever know what is driving them, but she will use any and every means to achieve it.

I have no sympathy and very little respect for Mrs May and I rather suspect she will alienate many people in Scotland and that could well be a tragedy.

I don't quite see How Mrs May will alienate the Scottish people,  as I understand it,  the majority of Scots voted against independence,  and according to polls in the last few weeks that continues to be the view of the majority.

Nice comment by MDS. Less seriously, IMO you Brits have been very (too?) accommodating to Ms. Sturgeon who I view, forgive me, as a treasonous power hungry little twit. I think somebody could perhaps take her aside and ask her how many planes, ships, and tanks she has. But I should be more mature than that. So on a more serious note, I think if you give into her the slightest bit, Northern Ireland will soon be in play. It's either Great Britain or not, it's your call.

At the time of the last referendum on Scottish independence the economic prospects for an independent Scotland didn't look too good. If anything, the economic climate has worsened in that respect, what with the oil price etc.  

Of course the issue is something of an emotional one too where people vote with their hearts rather than their heads.  I remain of the view that the economic prospects for the UK outside of the EU are worse than in but I feel the scale of risk for Scotland outside the EU (as it would be, at least for some years) and outside the United Kingdom is considerably greater. Would enough Scottish voters take that risk, some just to rid themselves of 'rule' by the Tories in Westminster? I hope not. 

Clay Bingham posted:

Nice comment by MDS. Less seriously, IMO you Brits have been very (too?) accommodating to Ms. Sturgeon who I view, forgive me, as a treasonous power hungry little twit. I think somebody could perhaps take her aside and ask her how many planes, ships, and tanks she has. But I should be more mature than that. So on a more serious note, I think if you give into her the slightest bit, Northern Ireland will soon be in play. It's either Great Britain or not, it's your call.

To be fair, I think the "Great" has been fading since the end of WWII, Clay, but your point still carries weight.  To continue the light-hearted question of Ms Sturgeon, she could currently answer that she has the bulk of UK's nuclear deterrent, given that the Trident subs are based at Faslane.

Don't think she's got the launch codes, though. 

Clay Bingham posted:

 Ms. Sturgeon who I view, forgive me, as a treasonous power hungry little twit. 

I have to agree with you.

She maintains she has the interests of the Scottish electorate at heart.....but that is utter nonsense.... She is exactly as you describe ' power hungry'.. 

There is one fantastically easy solution ~

The UK to hold an EU referendum re-vote.

A re-vote would entice many Remain supporters who were too complacent to be bothered to vote last June, to get off their backsides and get their votes in this time around.

Also, a re-vote would produce more Remain votes from the few million Regretsiteers. 

A re-vote would be far fairer now, with all the Brexit lies, deceits, and whoppers exposed it would produce a vote with a true sense of democracy, a convincing win for majority of the UK who really would prefer to remain in the EU.

A re-vote Remain win would be far more representative to the true representation of the people.

And...

The SNP independence plan would completely evaporate [for a very long time].

Nigel Farage would spontaneously combust [ a re-vote would be worth it just to see that alone!]

Teresa May and the whole rotten Tory Cabinet would be put up against the wall by a Tory wet takeover.

So it's a win win win situation!, what are we waiting for??

All we need is a re-vote! : D

Debs

I would like to see Nigel Farage spontaneously combust...

wenger2015 posted:

I would like to see Nigel Farage spontaneously combust...

Should have included Nicola Sturgeon... 

naim_nymph posted:

There is one fantastically easy solution ~

The UK to hold an EU referendum re-vote.

A re-vote would entice many Remain supporters who were too complacent to be bothered to vote last June, to get off their backsides and get their votes in this time around.

Also, a re-vote would produce more Remain votes from the few million Regretsiteers. 

A re-vote would be far fairer now, with all the Brexit lies, deceits, and whoppers exposed it would produce a vote with a true sense of democracy, a convincing win for majority of the UK who really would prefer to remain in the EU.

A re-vote Remain win would be far more representative to the true representation of the people.

And...

The SNP independence plan would completely evaporate [for a very long time].

Nigel Farage would spontaneously combust [ a re-vote would be worth it just to see that alone!]

Teresa May and the whole rotten Tory Cabinet would be put up against the wall by a Tory wet takeover.

So it's a win win win situation!, what are we waiting for??

All we need is a re-vote! : D

Debs

Ah, another bite of the cherry, and if that one fails, perhaps another, or if it succeeds perhaps those who lose will want another vote, when does it end, when you get your way?  I feel a deep sense of deja vue 

wenger2015 posted:

I would like to see Nigel Farage spontaneously combust...

I'd pay good money to watch

dayjay posted:

wenger2015 posted:

I would like to see Nigel Farage spontaneously combust...

I'd pay good money to watch

The fact he is completely full of WIND, will probably quicken the process 

naim_nymph posted:

Nigel Farage would spontaneously combust 

I think that might actually prove the existance of God though - which could be a Babel fish moment 

Interesting to see the quite personal anti-Sturgeon feeling in some of the posts here.

If I were Scottish, I'd vote for independence. The Scots have a government they didn't vote for forcing them out of Europe, which they overwhelmingly said they didn't want to happen. That is a huge, fundamental change of circumstances from the time of the last referendum, and therefore justifies a new one if there is the will for it in Scotland. And added to that, the government they didn't vote for seems hell bent on an austerity driven ideological crusade against a kind of socialist-leaning politics which is quite popular in Scotland. Just look at the reception of Mhairi Black's speeches and sentiments.

That's roughly how the Scots I know feel about it, and I can't say I blame them. Also, May adopting a lecturing tone when she says that a divisive referendum about independence wouldn't be good for the country will hardly go down well, coming from the party that brought us Brexit and then went about it in the way they have thus far.

Dave

If you were Scots you might consider the size  of your population, it's ability to support a separate economy and it's ability to support and compete on it's  own or within  the Euro zone ( will you be like Germany or like Greece or somewhere in between). Will you be able to afford all your free schools and other services. You might also ask yourself how attractive a trading partner are you to other countries or how attractive a member you might be to the European Community. Independence is great sounding but reality might not have the same warm fuzzy feeling.

That's fair enough, Clay. All that stuff would need careful weighing up, and perhaps 'I'd vote for independence' was a tad strong. More like I'd strongly consider it for reasons like those I mentioned, and balance the final decision against the considerations you highlighted.

That kind of rational, sober deliberation is nonetheless far removed from the blustering dismissals and name calling that have been prominent features of discussions of the issue in the past few days. And it's not as if being largely ruled by Westminster Tories has a universally warm and fuzzy feeling about it for Scots as it is. Independence can be a genuine choice for Scotland, even if you disagree that it'd be for the best - painting pro-independence Scots as conniving fools is hardly likely to endear anyone to anyone.

The question is which is more important to the Scottish electorate:

To be apart of the UK and remain in the EU

Or be independent county regardless of in or out of EU

Another question to factor in:

Would the English and Welsh electorate prefer a United Kingdom in the EU,

or a dis-United Kingdom out of the EU which incidentally is the way it's all heading.

All the above should be stressed to the voting UK public before an EU re-vote!

Clay Bingham posted:

Dave

If you were Scots you might consider the size  of your population, it's ability to support a separate economy and it's ability to support and compete on it's  own or within  the Euro zone ( will you be like Germany or like Greece or somewhere in between). Will you be able to afford all your free schools and other services. You might also ask yourself how attractive a trading partner are you to other countries or how attractive a member you might be to the European Community. Independence is great sounding but reality might not have the same warm fuzzy feeling.

Spot on, Clay. I can understand how Theresa May's statements and behaviour on this issue might rile those in Scotland who are inclined towards independence but in my view they need to decide between (a) pursuing independence as a means of (please forgive the expression) giving TM 'the finger' or (b) deciding the issue on what is best economically for the people and future generations of Scotland.   

Debs,

You are being far too rational in both of your posts above. And rationality has no place in British politics these days. Well, other than the selfish rationality of politicians who want power, privilege and pounds in their pockets at any cost to others.

You hit the nail on the head Dave***T.  All that stuff would need careful weighing up.  Some informed people have done just that before jumping to their feet and shouting and demanding that Scotland should be given Independence.

Nicola Sturgeon is only concerned about her name in history, not about the Scottish people because she does not speak for ALL the Scottish people, just the cabal that think she is right.

Just been watching the news, I note Sturgeon is back on her high horse, expressing more verbal dribble....

Does she have selective memory loss....  the Scottish people voted no....for being independent 

I don't understand why Sturgeon wants to separate Scotland from the UK (it's largest trading partner), become independent, but then tie itself to the EU and all the bureaucracy and red tape involved with being a member (one voice amongst many countries).  Can anyone explain the logic?  Surely independence should also mean independence from the EU as well?