Scottish Independence

Chris Dolan posted:

naim_nymph posted:

Nigel Farage would spontaneously combust 

I think that might actually prove the existance of God though - which could be a Babel fish moment 

If he got ran over on the next Zebra crossing that would be good enough...

Eloise posted:

Chris Dolan posted:

naim_nymph posted:

Nigel Farage would spontaneously combust 

I think that might actually prove the existance of God though - which could be a Babel fish moment 

If he got ran over on the next Zebra crossing that would be good enough...

In order to accidently be run over on a zebra crossing.....  he first of all needs to be forcibly removed from president Trumps ass...

wenger2015 posted:

Eloise posted:

Chris Dolan posted:

naim_nymph posted:

Nigel Farage would spontaneously combust 

I think that might actually prove the existance of God though - which could be a Babel fish moment 

If he got ran over on the next Zebra crossing that would be good enough...

In order to accidently be run over on a zebra crossing.....  he first of all needs to be forcibly removed from president Trumps ass...

President Trump has a donkey?

(PS. You've never looked up the Bable fish in your copy of The Guide I assume). 

Eloise posted:

wenger2015 posted:

Eloise posted:

Chris Dolan posted:

naim_nymph posted:

Nigel Farage would spontaneously combust 

I think that might actually prove the existance of God though - which could be a Babel fish moment 

If he got ran over on the next Zebra crossing that would be good enough...

In order to accidently be run over on a zebra crossing.....  he first of all needs to be forcibly removed from president Trumps ass...

President Trump has a donkey?

(PS. You've never looked up the Bable fish in your copy of The Guide I assume). 

Have now...

The clue might be in the fact that Nicola Sturgeon is a member of the Scottish National Party who since the day of it's inception stated that their politcal aim was to get independence for Scotland so I am not sure why you are lambasting her on here for pursuing that objective. Whether I agree with her or not.

Despite all the comments as well it seems the Scottish people think that she is protecting our interest and standing up to an austere UK government as I don't think she would have got re-elected otherwise.

Please don't think she is so stupid as to call one when she feels she won't win it so she is hoping Teresa May and the UK government will make a pigs ear of the negotiations for Brexit. Sturgeon is a very astute politician.

Her and May are both playing Blind mans bluff and are waiting to see who will blink first.

Remember she was elected on a mandate last year to keep Scotland in the EU whether that will happen or not is anyone's guess whereas Teresa May has not won a general election. Mind you she probably would because Labour look as if they are finished as a party and for them to get into power they have to re-establish their political base in Scotland and that doesn't look like it is going to happen anytime soon.

Possibly means you are looking at having a Tory government for the next 20 years.

Mind you I would assume you would all be up in arms if Teresa May had said I am sorry but even though you voted for Brexit I ain't going to pay any attention to what you lot think. 

On the original topic: (and prefacing my comments that I think he's a bad leader for the Labour Party) I once again find myself agreeing with Corbyn...

Scotland shouldn't be an independent country and should remain part of the UK and a referendum is not in the best interests of anyone; but if Scotland decide to hold a referendum then the UK government shouldn't try to stop them.

Can someone explain why after having a Scottish referendum on Independence and voting NO, 

Why  another one is required? 

Did we not vote Yes to leaving the EU, and have therfore started the process of excepting the voice of the people, regardless if we agreed to it or not.

As opposed to campaigning for another Referendum because we didn't agree with the result of the first one?

The former Scottish referendum on Independence took for granted remaining in the EU. This other one would have a different assumption.

Hence a new vote with for a different choice.

Almost right, what basically happened was that during the last referendum campaign we were lectured to on numerous ocassions that it would be disastrous for either the UK or Scotland to be outside the EU.

It was one of the scaremongering tactics used by the Better together campaign and last year the SNP were voted back in on the mandate that Scotland should remain a part of the EU and they could ask for a mandate to hold another referendum if there was a material change of circumstances.

As we now see circumstances would appear to have materially changed so that is why there is a call for a new one.

Everyone has assumed that there is going to be one but remember that this is just a call for one as it will depend upon what happens at the Brexit negotations.

If the UK gov gets a deal that allows Scotland to be a part of the EU, how that will work I do not know then the call is dead in the water.

As the UK gov have said on numerous occasions they want the border between the Republic of Ireland and Northern Ireland not to be a hard border, could that not work for Scotland? 

ewemon posted:

The clue might be in the fact that Nicola Sturgeon is a member of the Scottish National Party who since the day of it's inception stated that their politcal aim was to get independence for Scotland so I am not sure why you are lambasting her on here for pursuing that objective. Whether I agree with her or not.

Despite all the comments as well it seems the Scottish people think that she is protecting our interest and standing up to an austere UK government as I don't think she would have got re-elected otherwise.

Please don't think she is so stupid as to call one when she feels she won't win it so she is hoping Teresa May and the UK government will make a pigs ear of the negotiations for Brexit. Sturgeon is a very astute politician.

Her and May are both playing Blind mans bluff and are waiting to see who will blink first.

Remember she was elected on a mandate last year to keep Scotland in the EU whether that will happen or not is anyone's guess whereas Teresa May has not won a general election. Mind you she probably would because Labour look as if they are finished as a party and for them to get into power they have to re-establish their political base in Scotland and that doesn't look like it is going to happen anytime soon.

Possibly means you are looking at having a Tory government for the next 20 years.

Mind you I would assume you would all be up in arms if Teresa May had said I am sorry but even though you voted for Brexit I ain't going to pay any attention to what you lot think. 

 

Fair points, ewemon.  As you say, there's a clue in the name of the party.  I can also understand the desire of people to protect Scotland from the seemingly theology-driven austerity policies of the Conservative party in government.  No such option for those of us living in England, I'm afraid.  However, the prudent Scottish voter would do well to think hard about whether 'austerity' will get better or worse if Scotland becomes independent.  I know that requires some crystal-ball gazing but it seems to me that there is a chance that austerity could become more severe. At the moment Ms Sturgeon can blame the Tories for 'austerity' and the resultant cuts in public services in Scotland. There would be no hiding place for her and the SNP in an independent Scotland, and I'm sure she knows this.  

There's also the currency question to address, which remained an issue of dispute during the last referendum.   With the UK leaving the EU, I don't see how that issue is any easier to resolve.   

ewemon posted:

If the UK gov gets a deal that allows Scotland to be a part of the EU, how that will work I do not know then the call is dead in the water.

 

I haven't seen any suggestion that HMG is prepared to seek a brexit deal with the EU which involves Scotland remaining part of the EU. Apart from the practicalities, it would open a political can of worms. 

Is the desire for Scotland  to be independent, all about nationalism?

The Scots basically dislike/hate  the English and having to be governed by them?

We want to be able to govern ourselves because it will be so much better?

No more austerity?

Freedom?

Are these the reasons for wanting independence? Or is their a more significant reason? 

I would imagine if the Northern Ireland Republic border question gets settled then that may just allow the UK gov to offer something up to the Scottish Gov that might be partially acceptable to them.

Remember the risk that the SNP have is that if they call the referendum and then lose again that would be the worst scenario possible, they won't risk that as if they did lose then it would be more than a generation before we had another.

At the moment it is all bluff and counter bluff.

I would agree that if there was a referendum and we chose self rule then we would have austere times but isn't that exactly the same outcome we are being told by various politicians re Brexit.

Yet the UK still chose to leave.

I think they have learned a lot from how the last campaign was run and will have an answer to the currency question the next time.

We might have a Scottish dollar or the groat who knows.

Their other failure was to over estimate the take from North Sea oil but what people forget is that the UK gov has also lost that revenue and that is one of the reasons we are going through austere times.

MDS posted:

 

Fair points, ewemon.  As you say, there's a clue in the name of the party.  I can also understand the desire of people to protect Scotland from the seemingly theology-driven austerity policies of the Conservative party in government.  No such option for those of us living in England, I'm afraid.

Of course the people of England could have voted for the option which wasn't continuing the aurterity policies of the previous 5 years...

There's also the currency question to address, which remained an issue of dispute during the last referendum.   With the UK leaving the EU, I don't see how that issue is any easier to resolve.   

I think the currency question is more a symbolic question than any real pro or con...

Eloise - I have to disagree about the currency question. It is much more than symbolic. If Scotland retains Sterling it enjoys a stable currency with associated (low) borrowing costs. It also has the backing of the BofE. If Scotland adopts its own new currency it would have to persuade the World's markets that it was worth what Scotland's government said it was. I suspect that would take some time and during that 'probation period', interest rates in Scotland would be much higher than they are at the moment. Since at independence Scotland would inevitably 'inherit' some proportion of the UK's £1.7 trillion national debt, the costs of serving that debt could be a heavy burden on the Scottish economy - a higher one than it experiences today.    

Of course, if Ms Sturgeon had her way and an independent Scotland were allowed to stay part of the EU - something I don't think the EU would permit - it might adopt the Euro. A solid currency, but Scotland would effectively be swopping monetary policy set by the BoE for one set by Germany.  Where's the independence in that?  

According to the BBC news this evening, Ms Sturgeon has stated that Scotland would keep the British Pound.

So no controversial drama there, this time.

Don Atkinson posted:

According to the BBC news this evening, Ms Sturgeon has stated that Scotland would keep the British Pound.

So no controversial drama there, this time.

Except that the former Chancellor, Osbourne, said Scotland couldn't. I don't know what the current Chancellor's view on the matter is.

SCOTLAND first minister wants the English to go to live/work in Scotland, surely if all x scots do the same Scotland wouldn't have much space left

Frank F posted:

Here we have another point, what is the difference between UK and Scottish registration numbers??  It was easy years ago when HN was Darlington and TP Portsmouth but the change some years ago shows the forward thinking of the Civil Service and HM Government .

 

Scottish number plates - well they will be the ones starting Ssomething (e.g. SA17ABC; SB17ABC; SC17ABC; etc).

But you are mixed up there - HN is now Portsmouth (along with HK, HL, HM, HN, HO, HP, HR, HS, HT, HU, HV).

TP isn't a area code now; and Darlington doesn't have its own registration office.

audio1946 posted:

SCOTLAND first minister wants the English to go to live/work in Scotland, surely if all x scots do the same Scotland wouldn't have much space left

You would be surprised at how much room we actually have.

ewemon posted:

audio1946 posted:

SCOTLAND first minister wants the English to go to live/work in Scotland, surely if all x scots do the same Scotland wouldn't have much space left

You would be surprised at how much room we actually have.

Indeed. When I visited many years ago I was shocked at how wide open Scotland was. Some parts reminded me of the openess one still finds in parts of our states of Montana, Wyoming, and Idaho. You could drive an hour and not see another car or person.

A number of people who have contributed to this thread have done so in order to  vilify Nicola Sturgeon by describing her as nothing but "power hungry", and equating her with the likes of the despicable and self serving Farage.  

As Ewemon has pointed out, Sturgeon is not just the Scottish First Minister, but also the leader of the SNP and so it is hardly surprising that she campaigns for an Independent Scotland.

I have to assume that those who caricature Nicola Sturgeon from outside Scotland do so either because they really don't know a great deal about Nicola Sturgeon, because they simply don't understand Scottish politics, or because they just want to have a 'cheap laugh' at her or the Scottish people's expense.

Unlike a number of other politicians who have been named on this thread, Sturgeon is an extremely intelligent and thoughtful politician and political leader. Not only that, but she has a pretty uniformly high popularity with the electorate in Scotland, irrespective of the underlying political leaning of the electorate. There will obviously be exceptions to this viewpoint in Scotland, but by and large there isn't currently the same political vitriol and confrontational debate in Scotland that has beset UK politics over the last few years.        

Nicola Sturgeon is well within her rights to call for a second Independence referendum. As many have already stated the last referendum was fought on the basis that Scotland (as part of the UK) was firmly in the EU, and that (according to claims from the 'Remain' campaign) Scotland would potentially lose its EU membership by voting for Independence. Furthermore, Scottish people certainly do not have an appetite to be governed by a far right Government of the sort being constructed by Theresa May and her cohorts. There is no doubt that Politics in other constituent parts of the UK has taken a lurch to the right, and this taken in conjunction with the unfortunate demise of the Labour party is likely to result in a lengthy tenure for a right wing Tory government for the foreseeable future.

Now, having said all this, I do take seriously some of the more reasonable arguments against Independence that have been made in this thread. Despite the respect that I have for Nicola Sturgeon, and the fact that I have voted tactically for the SNP in the past, I am not by nature a Nationalist. If a second referendum is called, and if Brexit negotiations go the way I expect them to go, I, along with many other Scottish residents will have a very tough decision to make about which way to vote this time round.     

Dave***t posted:

Interesting to see the quite personal anti-Sturgeon feeling in some of the posts here.

If I were Scottish, I'd vote for independence. The Scots have a government they didn't vote for forcing them out of Europe, which they overwhelmingly said they didn't want to happen. That is a huge, fundamental change of circumstances from the time of the last referendum, and therefore justifies a new one if there is the will for it in Scotland. And added to that, the government they didn't vote for seems hell bent on an austerity driven ideological crusade against a kind of socialist-leaning politics which is quite popular in Scotland. Just look at the reception of Mhairi Black's speeches and sentiments.

That's roughly how the Scots I know feel about it, and I can't say I blame them. Also, May adopting a lecturing tone when she says that a divisive referendum about independence wouldn't be good for the country will hardly go down well, coming from the party that brought us Brexit and then went about it in the way they have thus far.

Most Scots are ambivalent at best about the EU. There was hardly an EU Ref campaign north of the border, and the turn out was relatively low. Moreover, many Nats are not at all Europhiles, with senior party members in recent times bashing the EU. So to believe SNP is somehow the darling of Brussels is a joke. 

The narrative of the Brexit vote as somehow being a legitimate trigger for another Indie Ref is also bogus. As someone who lives in Scot, but is English, I can tell you that since the SNP have been running the show up here, the country has been preserved in aspic. Growth is at a stand still. Jobs are low wage, and the economy is weighted far too heavily on the public sector. And the SNP have now made Scotland the highest taxed zone in the UK to pay for keeping people in poverty on the West Coast - their natural constituency of voters.

The assertion that Scotland is at the mercy of Tory Austerity is a joke and simply not true. Ironically, the SNP administration has been gradually grinding down public expenditure in health, social care and education. 

Scotland does run its own domestic affairs re health, education, jobs, etc. 

There's just not the public swell of enthusiasm for another ref and the Nats know this is their last chance. 

I mean why leave an economic bloc that gives you over 10 billion a year to join another that charges you billions for membership - and throws in a flaky currency to boot! 

Timjoebill posted:

"I mean why leave an economic bloc that gives you over 10 billion a year to join another that charges you billions for membership - and throws in a flaky currency to boot!"

What?

This must surely be on a par with some of the more ridiculous claims by the Brexit campaign in the EU referendum.

Despite living in the same country, we obviously live in very different circles and have very different acquaintances.   

Do you really feel that there is any political appetite at all amongst Scots to be perpetually governed by a Party led by May, Johnson, Hammond and Fox, and one that is likely to veer even more to the right in the foreseeable future? Surely not amongst the poverty stricken people whom you seem to resent being 'propped up' by your taxes.  

Most social policy spending is controlled by the Scottish devolved government- not the UK gov.

I obviously don't resent anyone in society, especially those who are living in poorly served parts of Scotland, with little social mobility, little local investment, little economic development who are peddled the same 'blame the Tories for your lot' lies time and again. Scotland has been running its social policy affairs for 20 years. The truth is the SNP is cutting services right across Scotland with education standards widely viewed as falling dramatically under their watch. 

The point Im making is their vision of an independent Scotland is not one that will be in a position to help the neediest in society, and it will have to do much to turn the largely low wage economy up here into something that generates revenue for the Scottish Treasury. They're peddling false hope.