Scottish Independence

Just been reading about a campaign to be launched, suggesting England should have its own referendum, along with Wales and lreland to decide if Scotland should be allowed to leave the UK?

Timjoebill posted:

Dave***t posted:

Interesting to see the quite personal anti-Sturgeon feeling in some of the posts here.

If I were Scottish, I'd vote for independence. The Scots have a government they didn't vote for forcing them out of Europe, which they overwhelmingly said they didn't want to happen. That is a huge, fundamental change of circumstances from the time of the last referendum, and therefore justifies a new one if there is the will for it in Scotland. And added to that, the government they didn't vote for seems hell bent on an austerity driven ideological crusade against a kind of socialist-leaning politics which is quite popular in Scotland. Just look at the reception of Mhairi Black's speeches and sentiments.

That's roughly how the Scots I know feel about it, and I can't say I blame them. Also, May adopting a lecturing tone when she says that a divisive referendum about independence wouldn't be good for the country will hardly go down well, coming from the party that brought us Brexit and then went about it in the way they have thus far.

Most Scots are ambivalent at best about the EU. There was hardly an EU Ref campaign north of the border, and the turn out was relatively low. Moreover, many Nats are not at all Europhiles, with senior party members in recent times bashing the EU. So to believe SNP is somehow the darling of Brussels is a joke. 

The narrative of the Brexit vote as somehow being a legitimate trigger for another Indie Ref is also bogus. As someone who lives in Scot, but is English, I can tell you that since the SNP have been running the show up here, the country has been preserved in aspic. Growth is at a stand still. Jobs are low wage, and the economy is weighted far too heavily on the public sector. And the SNP have now made Scotland the highest taxed zone in the UK to pay for keeping people in poverty on the West Coast - their natural constituency of voters.

The assertion that Scotland is at the mercy of Tory Austerity is a joke and simply not true. Ironically, the SNP administration has been gradually grinding down public expenditure in health, social care and education. 

Scotland does run its own domestic affairs re health, education, jobs, etc. 

There's just not the public swell of enthusiasm for another ref and the Nats know this is their last chance. 

I mean why leave an economic bloc that gives you over 10 billion a year to join another that charges you billions for membership - and throws in a flaky currency to boot! 

The overall UK economy has been weighted on Public and Service sectors since Maggies time in power as she basically killed most UK manufacturing with her policies.

She certainly killed the Topry Party in Scotland by using us as Guinea Pigs for what is now referred to as the Poll Tax

Re Tory austerity, the Scottish Government like all devolved parliaments have had their funding cut from central Gov, now that's not to suggest that everything is rosy up here but don't throw all the mud at SNP's administration.

They are not perfect by a long way as some of the choices they have made have directly affected services in Councils such as the Rate freeze even though they claim that they gave authorities extra funding but you can hardly say the current UK Gov are that great either, Social Care, NHS, Schools all in crisis.

If they were doing such a bad job I wonder why they got voted in again last year, strange that.

The Highlands at one time was an EU economic zone which benefited from large injections of EU cash to help widen roads and fund other developments. 

You only have to drive round the "poverty stricken" West  Coast to see signs everywhere "funded with help from the EU" or words to that effect.

Not sure where the replacement funds for those are going to come from because it certainly isn't from a right wing Tory Gov with eyes only for London and the South Coast of England.

Re taxation one of the biggest bugbearers on the "poverty stricken" West coast is fuel duty which as you well know is not in the remit of the Scottish Gov.

Like I have said before that currently it is a game of blind mans bluff and May and Sturgeon are waiting to see who will blink first.

The SNP will not risk holding a referendum if they feel they will lose.

Apparently Nicola Sturgeon is going to take steps against PM Mrs May after easter?

All very intriguing? 

Scotland would almost certainly not vote for Independence were a moderate Government in power in Westminster. However, with a "Nasty" right wing Government (with their inherent ideologies) led by Theresa May in power, and no longer moderated by the influence of the EU, the outcome will be far less clear. 

Not sure if I agree, 'nasty ' right wing...and the EU as a influencing  moderator ....your view sounds a little extreme...

As has already been pointed out in this or another thread, my use of the word "Nasty" is a reference to the comment by Theresa May a number of years ago:

"There's a lot we need to do in this party of ours. Our base is too narrow and so, occasionally, are our sympathies. You know what some people call us – the Nasty Party".

There are degrees of 'nastiness'. I don't believe that May herself, or Boris Johnson for that matter, are inherently nasty. However, I simply do not agree with many of their political goals or ideologies. Others are perfectly entitled to hold a different opinion. Minimum pay and workers' rights - just two areas where the moderating influence of the EU may be missed in the future.

However, there are a few individuals in her party whom I do believe to be inherently nasty and divisive.

To court comparison for a minute with events in the States - as for Dobald Trump and his closest advisers (Steve Bannon and Sebastian Gorka), they are not "nasty". They are simply evil. Events (or mainstream political parties) in the UK don't even register in this category.

It's my personal view, that whatever party happen to be in government, Sturgeon would still attempt to come up with a reason for another Scottish vote on independence..... 

As one journalist recently suggested,  maybe the UK should have a vote to see if we still want Scotland to be part of the United Kingdom? 

wenger2015 posted:

It's my personal view, that whatever party happen to be in government, Sturgeon would still attempt to come up with a reason for another Scottish vote on independence..... 

Her party was elected on a promise to continue to push for more independence for Scotland.  What part of her current position is counter to that election promise.

The Westminster government on the other hand...

Interestingly, yesterday,  the Daily Mail in reporting the PM's meeting with Sturgeon focused mainly on who had the best legs.....

That's because it's written by morons, for morons. 

I think your getting confused with the Mirror... 

I don't think so. 

wenger2015 posted:

Interestingly, yesterday,  the Daily Mail in reporting the PM's meeting with Sturgeon focused mainly on who had the best legs.....

Yes, definitely the Daily Mirror 

Hungryhalibut posted:

I don't think so. 

To give Wagner his dues... it does apply to the Mirror and the Sun too... and especially the Express!  The Telegraph and The Guardian perhaps too!

Eloise posted:

wenger2015 posted:

Interestingly, yesterday,  the Daily Mail in reporting the PM's meeting with Sturgeon focused mainly on who had the best legs.....

Which one is May and which is Sturgeon? 

May is obviously the one on the hard right.

sjbabbey posted:

May is obviously the one on the hard right.

Badam tish!

naim_nymph posted:

There is one fantastically easy solution ~

The UK to hold an EU referendum re-vote.

A re-vote would entice many Remain supporters who were too complacent to be bothered to vote last June, to get off their backsides and get their votes in this time around.

Also, a re-vote would produce more Remain votes from the few million Regretsiteers. 

A re-vote would be far fairer now, with all the Brexit lies, deceits, and whoppers exposed it would produce a vote with a true sense of democracy, a convincing win for majority of the UK who really would prefer to remain in the EU.

A re-vote Remain win would be far more representative to the true representation of the people.

And...

The SNP independence plan would completely evaporate [for a very long time].

Nigel Farage would spontaneously combust [ a re-vote would be worth it just to see that alone!]

Teresa May and the whole rotten Tory Cabinet would be put up against the wall by a Tory wet takeover.

So it's a win win win situation!, what are we waiting for??

All we need is a re-vote! : D

Debs

Which planet are you occupying? A re-vote? Padded cell is about right lol ....

bad losers 

Must say I find the whole Scottish independence campaign extremely boring.  There is an overwhelming lack of maturity in the arguments presented by Sturgeon, who is increasingly appearing to be the mouthpiece of on Alex Salmond.  Now there's a chap who should have walked off into the very long grass, never to be heard from in public political discussions again.  Their campaign for independence was extremely damaging for the Scotts who overall rejected their narrow self serving aspirations.

Salmond just can't leave it alone.  Sturgeon too.  They have invested too much of their political reputations and their little piggy snouts are too far buried in the trough of potential personal aspirations to have their names writ large in the history books.

They would be better served focusing on managing the challenges of running Scotland within the remit permitted to them successfully instead of covering up their inadequacies with independence campaign vII.  I do wish they would be quiet and, preferably, go away.

Peter

Northpole,

nicely summarised .....

It was supposed to be a "once in a generation" vote and the SNP agreed to this and promised they wouldn't ask for a re-run if they lost. The saturation coverage by the media was torture and seemed to last an eternity.  I am now at the point where I really don't care if they vote for independence or not - just make them all shut up and go away!  I've had it with the lot of them��

northpole posted:

Must say I find the whole Scottish independence campaign extremely boring.  There is an overwhelming lack of maturity in the arguments presented by Sturgeon, who is increasingly appearing to be the mouthpiece of on Alex Salmond.  Now there's a chap who should have walked off into the very long grass, never to be heard from in public political discussions again.  Their campaign for independence was extremely damaging for the Scotts who overall rejected their narrow self serving aspirations.

Salmond just can't leave it alone.  Sturgeon too.  They have invested too much of their political reputations and their little piggy snouts are too far buried in the trough of potential personal aspirations to have their names writ large in the history books.

They would be better served focusing on managing the challenges of running Scotland within the remit permitted to them successfully instead of covering up their inadequacies with independence campaign vII.  I do wish they would be quiet and, preferably, go away.

Peter

What campaign, it hasn't even started yet and Sturgeon is certainly not the mouthpiece for Salmond whom I have no particular affection for having met and dealt with him on numerous occasions.

Still not sure why you lot don't get that the SNP have always from the day of it's inception said it wanted independence for Scotland.

"Their campaign for independence was extremely damaging for the Scotts" and Brexit isn't for the whole country?

Re broken promises if that's what you think happened.

Here are some more

Labour broke a promise a to hold a referendum on the EU Constitution but they called it a treaty instead.

Lib/Dems- tution fees

Torys- National Insurance

Reminds me of People in glass houses etc etc.

Northpole posted:

"I do wish they would be quiet and, preferably, go away".

You may get your wish after the referendum takes place, However, there's a very good chance they will take the rest of Scotland along with them.