Scottish Independence

GraemeH posted:

Under the surface here I think there's a whole raft of anti-EU sentiment that wasn't drawn out at the in/out referendum in Scotland. This will draw more voters away from the SNP at the general is my view.

G

I humbly concur.

I am all for discussion from opposing points of view but could we please, in this forum at least, stop doing politics - this is what is screwing the whole world up.

By "politics" I mean

* statements pretending to be facts when they are just opinions;

* quoting opinion polls - irrelevant to any discussion of the merits or otherwise of a position;

* reflections of the personal nature on individuals, either the politicians or other members of this forum;

* taking a stance just because it is a party's stance;

* etc.

I have never belonged to a political party because I would not support all policies of any party; the most I could do with a policy I did not agree with is stay silent/abstain. Each policy should be approached from an individual viewpoint.

For those quoting numbers who voted, please stop ... you can argue them anyway you like but we had the referendum (both Scottish and Brexit) that we had and it was a win/lose scenario, nothing else;

* there could have been a threshold other than 50%;

* there could have been a threshold against the entire population;

* there could have been a legal requirement to vote (I  prefer this one since you can always spoil your ballot paper but at least this is a positive gesture);

* there could have been a requirement for voters to pass some test before they were allowed to vote so we could at least know that those voting actually knew something about what they were voting about rather than voting the way their favourite celebrity/newspaper/partner/etc said (contrevertial !.

... but none of the above happened so we have to live with what we got and cannot comment on what might have been if all the other non-voting public had participated.

In terms of Scottish independance

- I voted no (but with reservations);

- I agree with the logical position that there has been a substantive change of circumstances and that another referendum has merit;

- still undecided about how I would vote in the rerun but am currently minded to change my vote to yes.

I have not replied prior to this since there has been a lot of rubbish and irrelevant opinion posted that I thought would be self-evident to readers, but sadly not.

We live in a very flawed society and a very flawed political system but we are where we are and have to work with what we have ... so bring on indy ref 2

stuart.ashen posted:

What is interesting is the size of the swing to the conservatives. I thought they were dead in Scotland. I certainly see this as an anti referendum vote. 'Tis also true that the SNP remain strong though. GE up north will be interesting.

Stu

I would like to wish the Scottish Tories well in the GE ....

Allan Milne posted:

 

I am all for discussion from opposing points of view but could we please, in this forum at least, stop doing politics - this is what is screwing the whole world up.

 

By "politics" I mean

* statements pretending to be facts when they are just opinions;

* quoting opinion polls - irrelevant to any discussion of the merits or otherwise of a position;

* reflections of the personal nature on individuals, either the politicians or other members of this forum;

* taking a stance just because it is a party's stance;

 

* etc.

 

I have never belonged to a political party because I would not support all policies of any party; the most I could do with a policy I did not agree with is stay silent/abstain. Each policy should be approached from an individual viewpoint.

 

For those quoting numbers who voted, please stop ... you can argue them anyway you like but we had the referendum (both Scottish and Brexit) that we had and it was a win/lose scenario, nothing else;

* there could have been a threshold other than 50%;

* there could have been a threshold against the entire population;

* there could have been a legal requirement to vote (I  prefer this one since you can always spoil your ballot paper but at least this is a positive gesture);

* there could have been a requirement for voters to pass some test before they were allowed to vote so we could at least know that those voting actually knew something about what they were voting about rather than voting the way their favourite celebrity/newspaper/partner/etc said (contrevertial !.

... but none of the above happened so we have to live with what we got and cannot comment on what might have been if all the other non-voting public had participated.

 

In terms of Scottish independance

- I voted no (but with reservations);

- I agree with the logical position that there has been a substantive change of circumstances and that another referendum has merit;

- still undecided about how I would vote in the rerun but am currently minded to change my vote to yes.

 

I have not replied prior to this since there has been a lot of rubbish and irrelevant opinion posted that I thought would be self-evident to readers, but sadly not.

 

We live in a very flawed society and a very flawed political system but we are where we are and have to work with what we have ... so bring on indy ref 2

 

I agree. Let's have another and put the issue to bed - logically, after the EU negotiations have concluded.

But, if the outcome were to favour independence, let's not be having arguments about a border (there will be one) or currency (use your own). Independence is a fine and worthy aspiration for all nations - but you don't get to have your cake and eat it.

Bring it on ...

Alan Milne,

I would mostly concur with your point of view, but asking contributors to this thread to be reasonable, unbiased, and not quote out of context, is like asking a politcian to tell the truth, unfortunately it very rarely happens, but you never know..

YNWA250505 posted:

"But, if the outcome were to favour independence, let's not be having arguments about a border (there will be one) or currency (use your own). Independence is a fine and worthy aspiration for all nations - but you don't get to have your cake and eat it.

Bring it on ..."

Really, YNWA250505? So you have the inside track on this, do you?

Do you think Theresa May will build a wall, and is she going to make us poor Scots pay for it to be built? I guess that she has one advantage over Trump in that the process has already been started by Hadrian, albeit some time ago. She simply has to fill in the gaps.

Seriously though, do you apply the same logic to the border between Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland. Do you really think that the re-establishment of a hard border that will inevitably have to be policed by the military on either side is a good idea. Like Blair and his time in office or not, the establishment of peace in Northern Ireland was the biggest of his party's achievements, and could not possibly have been achieved without the dismantling of border posts between the two countries. Do you really want to risk future peace just to re-establish border checkpoints on Northern Ireland's borders. If you do, would you be prepared to man the borders?

Hmack posted:

YNWA250505 posted:

"But, if the outcome were to favour independence, let's not be having arguments about a border (there will be one) or currency (use your own). Independence is a fine and worthy aspiration for all nations - but you don't get to have your cake and eat it.

Bring it on ..."

Really, YNWA250505? So you have the inside track on this, do you?

Do you think Theresa May will build a wall, and is she going to make us poor Scots pay for it to be built? I guess that she has one advantage over Trump in that the process has already been started by Hadrian, albeit some time ago. She simply has to fill in the gaps.

Seriously though, do you apply the same logic to the border between Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland. Do you really think that the re-establishment of a hard border that will inevitably have to be policed by the military on either side is a good idea. Like Blair and his time in office or not, the establishment of peace in Northern Ireland was the biggest of his party's achievements, and could not possibly have been achieved without the dismantling of border posts between the two countries. Do you really want to risk future peace just to re-establish border checkpoints on Northern Ireland's borders. If you do, would you be prepared to man the borders?

 

Not Hadrian's wall, the Antonine wall - you don't get away with pinching that much land!  And since the Reavers are gone, we'll claim the "Debatable Land".  

One of the problems with Brexit is that unless we get a soft Brexit, remaining in the customs union and a free trade deal from day one or very soon after.  So unless you want to just accept that smuggling will be rife, then, yes there'll have to be a hard border in NI, with all the risk that entails.  Even if citizens have free access to the other country, there will still need to be a hard customs border.  Most people didn't think about this consequence of Brexit.

The situation is similar for Scotland if Scotland were to obtain independence and negotiate different trade deals to England (Scotland would then need it's own currency, however they could tie its negotiable value to Stirling if they so choose, which might reduce the need for a hard customs border).

Thanks Huge,

It was worth a try! I though no one on the English side would notice.

Although actually, I have to own up that my mistake was more to do with the fact that my knowledge of Roman history in the UK originates from my school days which were a long, long time ago. You are right, of course.

Seriously though, it is unlikely that a border between Scotland and England would result in anything like the same tensions as will potentially exist in Ireland. The solution to the Ireland issue will simply have to be something other than the re-establishment of a hard border with all of its inherent dangers.      

I wholeheartedly concur

A hard customs border between England and Scotland probably won't start a time of sectarian violence (or any other civil unrest), but I think it's highly undesirable all the same.

I also concur.

A hard customs border between Scotland and England would be highly undesirable.  

Huge posted:

Hmack posted:

 

Do you think Theresa May will build a wall, and is she going to make us poor Scots pay for it to be built? I guess that she has one advantage over Trump in that the process has already been started by Hadrian, albeit some time ago. She simply has to fill in the gaps.

Not Hadrian's wall, the Antonine wall - you don't get away with pinching that much land!  And since the Reavers are gone, we'll claim the "Debatable Land".  

I'm not sure ... we could compromise - give Scotland Newcastle and we'll keep Carlisle.